Really, history repeats itself... so now that the American dream is in such jeopardy, we have no where to go, so have to plan for survival of freedom itself !!!

Hello LionelHutz,
You should consider starting a new thread to discuss this subject.
You may garner more comments, though this subject matter is not unfamiliar here.
Respectfully,
O.A..

History... why do we study it if we are not to learn from it?

I'll make this my last comment on this thread.

YOU: you are arguing for free will. but this concept is completely incompatible with an all knowing, all powerful, God.
ME: No, it's not.

YOU: Nothing can happen without His action.
ME: Yes, it can.

YOU: It is immoral for God to judge you, because He decides.
ME: You can do better than this.

YOU: Christianity is built on fundamental concepts. can't pick and choose this "is" this "isn't"
ME: Yes, you certainly can. Using your very own brain. This is the basis of how denominations formed. When men drew conclusions from the Scripture that others felt erroneous, and then required others to believe them by attesting to a creed or some other manner, groups split apart to worship in a manner consistent with their brain.

YOU: Original sin is fundamental to the concept/idea the resurrection and to Jesus' life -period.
ME: SIN is the fundamental concept. I already agree with your objection to the 'original' aspect.
It has been misrepresented by major denominations for centuries. When the Scripture speaks of Adam's sin and its effect on mankind, it has to do with God's standard of justice applying equally to all men. He judges us for our sins in a manner consistent with Adam's judgment.

YOU: yes there is a Creator. that creator has no influence on your day to day life.
ME: Well, that depends on you, the Christian would say. Ben Franklin certainly thought he had something to do with their success in starting the new country.

YOU: morality is built around reason and logic and is human-centered not God-centered. that's is the crux of natural rights.

Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education … reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

George Washington - 1796 Farewell Address

I am not editing so read between the lines, maybe squint

you are arguing for free will. but this concept is completely incompatible with an all knowing, all powerful, God. nothing can happen without His action. It is immoral for God to judge you, because He decides. Christianity is built on fundamental concepts. can't pick and choose this "is" this "isn't" Original sin is fundamental t the concept/idea the resurrection and to Jesus' life -period. Is incredibly immoral. Assumes you are guilty before living. absurd, insane. As for deism being something separate-yes there is a Creator. that creator has no influence on your day to day life. morality is built around reason and logic and is human-centered not God-centered. that's is the crux of natural rights.

ok, now I have to go under and answer another post. of the religious kind. and shhhh, I secretly like some of them

My strongest objection to what you said is the point about humanist philosophy. A humanist would not be bringing God into the equation in the first place. You can say they were deist and not Christian. I argue this is debatable (I think they were just using broad language acceptable to all denominations to make their main point while avoiding being divisive on the nature of the Creator). What is not debatable is that they brought God into the equation and that is not consistent with humanism.

How is "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" consistent with Christianity? I will let the Scriptures speak for themselves here.

John 10:10 - The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. (Jesus)

2 Cor 3:17 - Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

James 1:25 - But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Eccl 9:7-9 - Go then, eat your bread in happiness and drink your wine with a cheerful heart; for God has already approved your works. Let your clothes be white all the time, and let not oil be lacking on your head. Enjoy life with the woman whom you love all the days of your fleeting life which He has given to you under the sun; for this is your reward in life and in your toil in which you have labored under the sun.

I will not argue for original sin - I believe this is a false doctrine.

Christianity may well NOT be consistent with your concept of owning your life. This depends on your viewpoint, I suppose. In once sense Christianity teaches that you don't own yourself - God does. But on the other hand this only comes about because of ones decision to follow that "perfect law of liberty". The Christian is always in the driver's seat of their life. If they were not, it would be most unjust for God to judge their life at the end.

concur

I was being facetious and giving you a hard time. And I think "A double S" should be a square on the game board. :)

no. not that sensitive. but I did think Kathy wanted a a conversation more on point. but you know I always have to do this-and they always get points which chaps my a double s

Not really. I typically call a spade a spade. Did you think I was calling you on highjacking? :)

were you worried I was referring to you?

yea, I sort of hijacked. but it always gets me that somehow organized religion is benevolent compared to evil dictatorship.

BLA!! Hitler was VOTED in.... and the majority LET him take their rights and freedoms away in the name of full bellies and safety (or was it JUST full bellies?)...and ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE!
THAT'S the point. (Religion aside.)

Who's too P.C.?

Creator is not the christian God. it is consistent with deism. Show me how "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is consistent with Christianity? let's just start with original sin and owning your life. I do not see the 10 commandments in the founding documents.Guiding principles of Christianity are NOT in there.
I will agree that the Bible was influential. Which Bible, though? Jefferson's 12 pager?
You quote Franklin from one time in his life (not the time of construction of founding documents) and I can point to a dissertation he wrote in earlier life called "A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain,"
or "Some books against deism fell into my hands;...the arguments for deists... appeared to be much stronger than the refutation; in short, I soon became a thorough deist." BF's autobiography

The declaration recognizes that men were created, and that they endowed by their Creator with the list of items straight from Locke. I don't think it's fair to say the country was founded on humanist philosophy. They were taking Locke's viewpoint and saying those natural rights were granted by the Creator because they felt it WAS consistent with the religion one held, which overwhelmingly WAS Christianity in the colonies.

What the founders were most certainly fearful of was the idea that the government was going to regulate your adherence to particular practices of religion. But does this mean they founded the country on humanist principles? There is no way I can agree with that. Humanism is a philosophy which has no place for a God. Yet they worked God into the Declaration on purpose.

“The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?”
Benjamin Franklin - Constitutional Convention of 1787.

The sparrow reference, of course, is from the Bible. Quoted by the deist.

I disagree. Paine, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin (four right off the top) were very concerned about organized religion of any kind. That is why "Creator" is non-specific in founding documents. most were deist as opposed to Christian. Hamilton was very religious and Washington was non-specific religious, however, that influence did not extend into the Declaration(natural rights statement) nor the Constitution(greco-roman governmental theory) .Look at the 1st Amendment.
The US is as much a christian nation as algebra is arab math. :)

Scary thing is, "Totalitarianism didn't come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until 1943.."

very good article. however,the US was built on a humanist philosophy. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are straight from Locke and Natural Rights and are not consistent with Christianity.
that aside, people don't see parallels -some even in here-and we're too pc to call a spade a spade.