working on it.

That deserves a thread of its own Winterwind

great phrase! and perfectly descriptive-

A collapse of either the US or China would take down everyone. If the US collapses things fall faster.

Despite comments about camping which resulted in the title "Mrs. Gatsby" [which I often wear proudly, BTW], there is one area on which no one has touched - medical care. Not "wellness checks" or a prescription for an antibiotic for an infection, but care for catastrophic incidents or chronic conditions.

That is not what I WON'T give up, it is what I CAN'T give up. I am what is termed a "chronic pain patient" - what that means is that I got one of those spines on which the warranty runs out early, and I take narcotics every single day.

As I think about shrugging [in the go somewhere else sense] I have researched opium poppies, and the process of obtaining the narcotic from the plant is not difficult, just need a good chemist or even someone who can follow directions exactly.

So my case is covered, at least to my satisfaction, but I know there are other people with other problems who should consider how to deal with them.

+1 for you

what?!? It was Ayn Rand who showed me that my belief that man is inherently good was correct. She showed me examples and situations to prove it. I have seen it to be true in life.
Yes, we can make choices that have evil or destructive results. Yes, people can be warped by their experiences and follow paths that also lead to evil choices. Almost everyone has a breaking point [remember the trailer?] at which the lesser of 2 evils seems to be the only choice.

But man is "evil and corrupt and no-damn-good" inherently, all the time, every single one? NO.

Yes, given this is the gulch, I understood "sacrifice" to more along the lines of: "What would you be willing to pay / trade for ..."

Probably true - without capitalism there would be little or nothing for them to steal to support their Greater Bad.

Multiple Gulches remain a possibility.

Sorry, things are way beyond "that bad" today. It fell off the wagon in 2008, but we've seen that brainwashing works.

So we've already "shrugged". I might add that it happened for me about 1995. I'll add that I stopped Supporting the Beast about 25 years ago.

I would also add that AR expressed the concept of totalitarianism as the one she was most familiar with. If we consider the more recent ideas of "soft totalitarianism" some not all of her criteria would be necessary.

I posted an article on it elsewhere in the gulch.

I'm not even playing the political game. I make no money from politics/gov't, and I don't need a narrative to blame my failures on.

It almost seems like you've been in the world of politics so long, that you can't imagine anything but second-handers getting behind other people or wanting a reaction from people. It must be, you apprently think, a strategem for some group or another. It appears to scare you to think of someone acting as an individual, not a part of representing some gang. I am certainly WRONG in that impresssion b/c you've said you're categorically against people acting as groups.

Note that it's very easy for me to speak my mind outside my industry b/c there's nothing at stake for me. This is someone else's game. All I want out of it is a free and open society. If some issue of integrity hurt my writing or electronics work, that would actually mean something.

I would be happy to discuss state policies. I have never met Gov Walker. I think he was right on busting public unions but wrong to sell it as a cost-saving measure and to try to pit people against one another. I am okay with partially privatizing UW, but not if the gov't is going to forbid tuition increases. I suspect my even talking about it would bother you, though, unless you can categorize it into some political interest group rather than some guy's thoughts.

Please don't sweat me being wrong about stuff. Otherwise you'll always be upset b/c I have a history of being wrong, like when I wrote those SPY calls a couple days ago.

If well selected, there would be no need to kick anyone out later. Shared premises, shared values. And anyone kicked out could become a tattletale, so there goes the security. I am reminded of Jim Jones' commune or the Branch Davidian compound. Or inner-city gangs where apostasy means death.

The Gulch would have to be invisible to the outside world, or set up its own defense forces. When things get bad enough in the outside world, people will start looting in desperation, and their first targets will be the haves. John Galt probably had laser defenses for the valley, assuming anyone even suspected it existed. With a futuristic motor, all technologies would become possible for the Gulch but not for the outsiders. How else could he override all the TV networks?

What would be most helpful is to hang in here and keep injecting rational values into the current culture, veering it away from perpetual wars and mutual destruction and cannibalistic social programs. Now consider also that it would take a very tiny push to turn a Gulch, real or virtual, into an ever larger group until it takes on the characteristics of a collective. As it grew, it would take on more and more power, and aim towards increasing its powers, both for its self-preservation and for exerting influence over the rest of the world, if only to make that world more amenable to its own standards. Beware the totalitarian temptation.

I, too, would cherish having only kindred spirits in my circle, of individuals I can respect, admire and embrace as kin. Not an accidental tribe but a chosen one. I have often pondered whether there is a contradiction between unremitting individualism and the natural human condition of belonging to a group of companions, friends, collaborators. And while one should not live "for the sake of another", it's fine to be voluntarily generous and giving towards individuals who are a value to oneself.

I find it almost comical how within this forum certain commenters are jumped on and condemned for minor deviations from doctrine. I rather view it as a colony of memes in each person's head reacting against perceived memes in the other's, and like rival dogs those memes rear up for battle. Imagine if that happens in this tiny group, how much more virulent that battle becomes when nation states or religious systems confront each other with millions or even billions of members dragged in.

Humanity is still on an evolutionary track intellectually and emotionally. Yes, they all need philosophy. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this company could form a critical mass to give it that little push, that butterfly wing flap, into a better direction? We've come too far, too long, to let everything the last half million years have gained be wiped out because we can be made to hate unreasoningly and to kill unconscionably. This is not a time to shrug. It's a time to be objectively rational and do a little genetic engineering in human consciousness, to be the antidote to the deadly ideas dominating our culture.

if/when the usa collapses the rest of the world falls in as well. china will not matter, as i believe they are having a rough time now. our economy is slggish so theirs comes to a crawl.

I'm happy that you haven't had the experience.
It takes time from you...and time is all that we have...hence shortening your life deliberately and prematurely. That is the definition of the word murder.

Oh, you mean the way the Brits did sending their convicts to Australia? In your example, if there is a host country, it won't matter what it "likes". Brain drains have happened before. To keep their best, the country's leaders need to protect freedoms that make staying a value.

It does not have to be a single gulch. Multiple gulches would be fine.

I have searched for Midas here in the Gulch. He hasn't shrugged yet.

They call em angels who would fund things to be made available only to other gulch members. Call it gulchfunding

Got to love this post. almost 30 years ago I got off a plane in Caracas, VZ; my wife had bought me Atlas. was carrying it, cover off, and my distributor in VZ walks up to me, smacks his chest and says "franciso D'anconia!" he was hero as reardon was mine. I like the virtual Gulch, and those of us being self sufficient, building up our piles of indepoendence are on the path. the crunch is coming, we'll be ready!

Don't forget that technology is rendering economies of scale moot.

I would agree except for one thing. We have not declared war on anyone. We have no enemies we are at war with. Without congress declaring war on terrorism against the US we are simply killing people and our government is simply a despot selecting people for death because they think they are a problem.

Get a declaration of war and your statement makes sense, without that step from congress its just murder.

Judge Narragansett, where are you? And bring a few policemen with you, just in case.