you no longer can hold your own values in America

Posted by MaxCasey 11 years, 4 months ago to News
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you are no longer able to chose to exercise your values in America. You now run the risk of being forced to become a hypocrite by the government. Whether you agree with gay marriage or not, this baker should not be forced to work for people he chooses not too.


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  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Boycotts, in and of themselves, are an ineffective method of creating change. Lawsuits must be permitted as well.
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  • -2
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    People have no right to discriminate, and yes, the government is fully entitled to punish those who do so. Anarchy is not a workable method of keeping order in society.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If not by the market, responsive to humans, who; the government? So how's that working for you?
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  • Posted by Wonky 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that's evident from the picture in the article. The protestors are holding a sign that says "Let the gays eat cake", which completely misses the point. Instead, it reframes the whole issue as innocent children being deprived of a yummy treat. If that's really the way want us to see the issue, then what follows is that they look like silly babies with daddy issues. I'm glad that the government didn't come to my house, point a gun to my dad's head, and say "serve this kid what he wants or we'll escort you to jail" every time I was refused a Twinkie.

    This is tragic because this was a great opportunity to call for a reasonable boycott with real support from heterosexuals - and they squandered it.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Call it what it is, Maph. Force. (Anti personal decision legislation. Anti freedom. Hell, it's against the 1st Amendment even....unless that now has a disclaimer that you can only speak freely if no one's feelings are getting hurt.)
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    you know, I think many people thrive on pushing conflict. I wonder if that is the case here.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "public sphere" has socialist origins. IT is not a Constitutionally supported concept. We may have passed bad laws that support the concept but they are bad and lead to bad consequences and make slaves of one group (entrepreneurs) while protecting another (gays). Both groups are american citizens and no harm was done to remedy. They can go down the street and get a cake. Walmart has great icing-whey wouldn't have batted an eye at that order. See? no harm. IT's that the couple wanted a cake from that specific business and they did not care that the business should have to perform. This is not how contract law works. Both parties must be willing when entering into a contract. IF one party is unwilling and the govt says I do not care and supports the other party, that's with prejudice. and it's straight up contractual slavery.
    Payment is only one part of a contract.
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  • Posted by Wonky 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well said. Who wants to eat a cake made at gunpoint anyway? Is that how you'd want to remember your special day?
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  • Posted by 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hmm, who you marry could undermine the fabric of a culture or society. If two low IQ individuals breed more low IQ individuals that could be against the public interest and make us less competitive on the public stage. Better pass a law prohibiting dummies from breeding.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You have no right to force someone to part with the product of their labor just because you want it or for any reason what so ever. the man consumes his life in the production of his trade, who are you or the government to tell him for who he must let be the recipient, or for what level of compensation?
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Definition #1 could potentially be synonymous with either definition #2 or definition #3, depending on the context.
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Socialisim is about putting all apects of production under the direct control of the government. Acknowledging that there is a distinction between private and public life is not part of that.
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  • -3
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The shop owner violated the rights of his customers. He deserves to be fined. Freedom does not permit one to violate another's rights.

    And you're right, I'm not an Objectivist, though I do consider myself a capitalist. I came to this site because I found Atlas Shrugged to be an entertaining story and an admirable criticism of socialism. Yet in spite of that, I find many parts of Objectivism to be self-contradictory and impractical. But I also enjoy debate, and discussing the pros and cons of Objectivism wouldn't be possible anywhere except on an Objectivist forum.
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    People have unalienable rights, one of which is the right to not be discrimated against.
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You expose the flaw in your reasoning with the phrase "if the market doesn't like it."

    Human rights should never be determined by the market, because the market very often is entirely capable of permitting discrimination.
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Boycotts, and also lawsuits. To discriminate against someone is to violate their rights. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for the government to pass laws against it.
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Who you marry is a purely private matter, which the government has no business dictating. Remember the distinction between private and public spheres?
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  • Posted by Wonky 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    A free market can decide for itself. If gays and gay sympathizers choose to boycott the business, kudos to them.

    Much like the saying "a good merchant does not argue religion with his clients", a good merchant does not argue sexuality with his client. If a baker chooses not to sell penis shaped cakes in spite of a market for them, it's his loss.

    Getting the government involved is ridiculous. That the government would get involved is simply wrong.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    who are you to determine the correct basis and impose it upon me?

    Are hurt feelings harm? How about lower self esteem? who is the arbiter of what "harm" is?

    You are not free to not be offended. there is no demonstrable right to be free from being offended, nor is there any right to be universally liked. People must be allowed to determine their own values and act accordingly. If you deny that, then there is no freedom and there is no individuality. Where does it stop? Who decides? Society? A simple majority? A super majority? How many men does it take to vote the panties off of an unwilling woman?
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  • Posted by 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    a person who is forced to do work for another, regardless of compensation, a man who has no choice, no ability to choose his values is a man that is oppressed, a man who is a slave to the moral dictates of "society".

    Maphesdus, you need to step out of your emotional based thinking and understand the nature of rights. While the gay couple may have had their feelings hurt, no force was used against them. Now the shop owner is being forced, at the threat of a fine, which is equivalent to a portion of his life if he doesn't serve the gay couple. You don't have the "right" to do business with anyone that doesn't of his own free will choose to serve you. If you claim that a person choosing to refrain from service, even for prejudiced or biased reasons must serve another, even if it can be morally shown that the bias is immoral, you are still using the ends to justify the means.

    If the means are not moral, the ends cannot be justified. Denial of rights, for the sake of someone's definition of Utopia is not justifiable and the Gay's rights are not being violated any more than a black man's would have been, or any other "protected" group. Yes, people should be allowed to make their own decisions. In private enterprise they should be able to express their prejudice or bias and they should not be protected from the ills that their irrational behavior will inevitably bring upon them.

    How you can suggest that the shop owner is the instigator, the bully is beyond me. I honestly don't understand how you came to be on this site. You are obviously no Objectivist.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Holy cats!!! That was a mouthful of contradictions. Maph, you're obviously seriously conflicted. You want a life free of judgement. Good luck with that.
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