How Fundamentalist Collectivism Empowers Hardliners Against the Wishes of Most Americans

Posted by Maphesdus 11 years, 3 months ago to Politics
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From the article:
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This is one reason that, no matter how often the courts try to kill it off, creationism ends up being presented again and again in classrooms as if it’s a scientific theory. The majority of Americans agree that evolution is how humans came to be. Despite this, as Slate recently reported, Texas students in charter schools are not only being incorrectly taught that evolution is a scientific “controversy” (it’s actually not controversial among scientists at all), but are being given religious instruction in the classroom. It’s not subtle, either, with one popular science workbook opening with a Bible quote, “In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.”

Only about 21 percent of Americans reject the label of Christian, which means that the majority of people who accept evolution is a fact are actually Christians. So, if there’s so much Christian support for the theory of evolution, why is this such a struggle? The problem is that the Christian right has successfully framed the issue as a matter of atheists and secular humanists against Christians. While some pro-science groups like the National Center for Science Education, try really hard to avoid talking at all about religion – except to say it should not be taught in science class – the truth of the matter is the pro-evolution side is strongly associated with atheism and secular humanism.

A lot of Christians actually believe that creationism is not true and should definitely not be taught in the classroom, but coming out and saying so can feel like you’re siding with the atheist team instead of the Christian one. Unsurprisingly, then, the notion that pro-evolution forces are atheist and secularist becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nearly all the most prominent voices on the pro-science side of this issue are atheists or agnostics, because they, for obvious reasons, aren’t particularly worried about being perceived as not Christian. Once again, identity works to scare Christians into toeing the party line even if they privately disagree with what the leadership wants.


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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The First Amendment prohibits the creation of a national church or religion, such as the Anglican church created when Henry V got crossways of the Catholic Church. That's it. "An establishment of religion".
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  • Posted by SolitudeIsBliss 11 years, 3 months ago
    Shouldn't the principle of a Free Society be that people can believe in whatever they want to believe in?
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't know enough about it. I did check out Wiki on "macroevolution" and it posed that making a distinction between micro and macro was misleading.
    "The term "macroevolution" frequently arises within the context of the evolution/creation debate, usually used by creationists alleging a significant difference between the evolutionary changes observed in field and laboratory studies and the larger scale macroevolutionary changes that scientists believe to have taken thousands or millions of years to occur. They accept that evolutionary change is possible within what they call "kinds" ("microevolution"), but deny that one "kind" can evolve into another ("macroevolution").[14] Contrary to this belief among the anti-evolution movement proponents, evolution of life forms beyond the species level (i.e. speciation) has indeed been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature.[15] In creation science, creationists accepted speciation as occurring within a "created kind" or "baramin", but objected to what they called "third level-macroevolution" of a new genus or higher rank in taxonomy. Generally, there is ambiguity as to where they draw a line on "species", "created kinds", etc. and what events and lineages fall within the rubric of microevolution or macroevolution.[16] The claim that macroevolution does not occur, or is impossible, is not supported by the scientific community."

    I will say I don't like that last sentence. I can just imagine if I went to wiki on global warming that same sentence is used.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Paleontologists study ancient life and reason that each species is a modification of the previous generation. Geneticists embrace this theory and trace the lineage of genes. Root-Bernstein wondered if there could be another level of paleontology embedded in the molecules that reflect evolution from the earliest stages of life and found in prebiotic chemistry, the study of chemical reactions that may have sparked the beginnings of life." - See more at: http://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2012/studyi...

    geneticists embrace this theory
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Oh no, I don't say that evolution in general should be ignored, in fact I find micro evolution to be very provable. I do not, however find macro evolution to be provable due mostly to the complete absence of any single "in between" in the fossil record. Even Darwin himself wrote that this was an issue. Still to this day none have ever been found when logically the "in betweens" would vastly out number the functional animals that comprise the fossil record.
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  • -2
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    >Evolution is scientific theory. It is testable.

    Has it been tested?

    Design is testable, too.

    >Scientific theory is not about consensus

    No, but institutionalized religions are. Darwinism is institutionalized religion.

    >Understanding evolution theory is a significant foundation for other areas of science.

    For example?

    >Building blocks should not be ignored because there is a competing theory.

    You think Darwinism is a necessary "building block" for understanding science? I can't think of a single case where that would be true, nor can I think of any scientific discovery requiring Darwinism, or that occurred because the researchers cleverly applied Darwinian ideas.

    To take just one notable example, the discovery of the helical structure of DNA by Watson and Crick, as well as the indisputable fact that it's not just a molecule but a chemical hard-drive — an information-storage device —storing and transmitting information about the organism in the form of a discrete digital code (A, C, T, G) required zero knowledge or assumptions of Darwinism.

    Darwinists, of course, later retro-fitted the discoveries of Watson and Crick into their hypothesis, but that came later; they applied knowledge of biochemistry to Darwinism; Watson and Crick did not apply Darwinism to their research on DNA.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Will,
    Evolution is scientific theory. It is testable. Scientific theory is not about consensus just as global warming should not be about consensus. Understanding evolution theory is a significant foundation for other areas of science. Building blocks should not be ignored because there is a competing theory.
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  • -1
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    >Most religious people actually believe in evolution.

    I doubt that. In fact, recent published polls show that the majority of people in the US do not believe in Darwin's account of evolution, even though they tolerate it — or are forced to tolerate it — in their public schools.

    >This was the primary point behind the article.

    The article is clearly just lefty hysterics. I especially loved the lie that Christian fundamentalists are "chipping away" at a woman's "access" to birth control.

    Hello???? Even the poorest woman can save her spare change, scrape together a dollar or two, and buy condoms at any local drug store. The idea that unless something is state-subsidized and "free" it is "inaccessible" is a typical lefty economic myth.

    >The wackos who oppose evolution are a tiny minority.

    The "wackos" include many scientists working in biochemistry, molecular biology, embryology, physics, computer science, etc. They don't "oppose" evolution. They oppose teaching it as scientific fact when it is, at best, just a hypothesis. Personally, I think it's the materialist version of a creation myth: creation without a creator.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry, but I am not willing to engage in a discussion with someone who conducts themselves the disrespectful way you do on this forum.
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  • -2
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    >evolution is easily proven to a degree in the simple fact that humans are getting slightly taller with each successive generation.

    How does that prove Darwinian evolution?

    >Still, evolution being taught as an origin of the species has holes in it you can drive a semi truck thru. It is a solution by default. It lacks way too many things to be teachable as fact.

    True. It lacks empirical evidence, and it lacks mathematical plausibility. Two good reasons not to call it science.

    >creation, is clearly incredible."

    Clearly wrong. A supernatural deity might be incredible, but the idea that living organisms display obvious signs of having been designed by an intelligence — that living organisms are not the natural result of matter and energy interacting by themselves over long periods of time, because over long periods of time things break down, moving from less probable physical configurations to more probable physical configurations — and are, in fact, a kind of technology, is very credible.
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  • -4
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    >Keep your religion where it belongs

    That would be true of other religions, too, such as Darwinian evolution.

    The difference is that Christianity is presented as religion, while Darwinian evolution is presented as science. It isn't.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    forcing religious doctrine includes forcing atheism and forcing the Green agenda.

    Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom FROM religion. Being exposed to an idea is NOT the same thing as being forced to agree with that idea.

    But you think the State and federal government has the authority to force, not mere tolerance, but acceptance of views contrary to their religious views... and I'm not talking evolution here.
    People are now persecuted for saying "homosexuality is perverted", and any teacher who said that would be punished. But, with your endorsement, teachers are *encouraged* to say "Homosexuality is normal and healthy".

    So before you whine about ideas with no basis in reality being forced on people, using the label "religion", revisit your premises.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Who's poking fun at anything? I'm merely pointing out how a radical section of Christian fundamentalists are pushing certain agendas in the name of all Christianity when a majority of Christians don't even believe in those agendas.
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's easy to poke fun t things you don't believe and hold no value for malph.

    Don't forget we all hold certain things dear and here you are trampling on one of mine. It would take no great effort to post volumes of webpages that exhibit the least desirable elements of your own special interest.

    We know yours and choose to not rub your nose in things that are smelly. We don't need to post those things to build up our own persona.

    Show us the same courtesy we show you. It's called being a gentleman.
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The reason is simple. She's a liberal dem. and can't accept that any person with leftist notions like hers, would be, could be, would dare to be a real Christian.

    My problem lies where I have trouble believing that a Christian who understands what their faith is based on can be a leftist dem. But I've met many who claim the same religious precepts as I, but insist that there is no inconsistency in voting for a "leader" who is vocally opposed to everything we are to follow. Who makes a stand that the most basic of all religious, moral, human right can be violated, not by a court or leader, but by the guidance of some min wage plus "counselor" in "planned parenthood".

    It's not surprising to find many inconsistencies in their lives as time goes on. One moral surrendering ALWAYS leads to more.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No I am not being trapped by that idea. I am clearly a religious person. That said evolution is easily proven to a degree in the simple fact that humans are getting slightly taller with each successive generation.

    Still, evolution being taught as an origin of the species has holes in it you can drive a semi truck thru. It is a solution by default. It lacks way too many things to be teachable as fact.
    1. The fossil record is incomplete with almost all of the transitional forms between the different species missing completely from the record. You have the first animal and then the second. In evolution, a slow process taking thousands or millions or years the transitional forms would be more numerous than the first or second animal. Instead they are missing totally.
    2. How did life develop from non-life in the first place?
    3. How are we, master of the Earth via the powers of our mind, capable of rendering creations of intelligent design while ourselves being products of random evolution. If the theory of evolution is correct our creations exceeded us when we created our first hut.
    The zoologist Professor D.M.S. Watson said it best when he said “Evolution is a theory universally accepted not because it can be proved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible.”
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    They're different things. Science is based on observation and invites people to find falsifying data. Religion is based on things that are not scientifically falsifiable, such as human values and our place in the universe.

    The gov't should not establish a religion, not only b/c of the Constitution, but b/c of the benefits of a religiously pluralistic society.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    We are not discussing the right of people to practice their religion, we are discussing whether government, either state or federal, has the authority to force religious doctrine onto students through the public school system. Your right to practice your religion does not include the right to force that religion on everyone else.

    Honestly, it seems to me like advocates of states' rights don't mind if people's rights get violated at all as long as it's the state government that does it and not the federal government.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You're falling into the trap of believing that being religious automatically means opposing the theory of evolution. It doesn't. Most religious people actually believe in evolution. This was the primary point behind the article. The wackos who oppose evolution are a tiny minority.

    So no, I do not think schools should be afraid of teaching proven scientific facts just because a few fringe nutjobs insist on denying reality. If those fools had their way, they'd insist that schools teach this:

    http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large...
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  • Posted by mminnick 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My religion is where it belongs -- in my heart and in my head. We are not discussing my religion or yours. We are discussing the right of people to practice their religion. If Texas or any other state as the governing body of the school and it curriculum allows creationism to be taught, so be it. If that is the case and you don't like it, get the state to change it, they have the power to do so generally faster than taking it to court..
    You are correct, in my opinion, that creationism is religion, not science and should not be taught as science in schools. It may however be discussed as a competing theory to evolution and shown to be scientifically invalid on any number of points. My tradition says the world is only slightly more than 5,00 years old. This is a demonstrabily inaccurate claim and as such should not be presented as fact. I may however be presented as tradition of an old culture.
    There are many ways to skin a cat so too speak. I prefer one that doesn't let the government interfere more than absolutely necessary.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree. Extremist leaders pushing radical viewpoints that a majority of their supporters don't agree with is actually a problem on both the right and the left.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If any religious faith wants to teach anything or to insure it's taught, then they're free to do so in their church or in their members' homes. But not in my face, or that of my children.

    Keep your religion where it belongs
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you were religious would you want the theory of evolution forced upon your child because “the majority” of people believe it to be fact?

    It would be a lot simpler to avoid the creationism vs evolution fight in schools all together. There are plenty of other scientific areas for schools to focus on.
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