Illegals could throw the Electoral College towards Hillary

Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 6 months ago to Government
117 comments | Share | Flag

though this is Newsmax (grab your salt shaker) there is
an important fact here::: most of the Electoral College votes
are derived from gross census, which includes illegals. -- j
.


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  • Posted by MarkHunter 9 years, 6 months ago
    Nope, I had written that AR’s use of the phrases “national self-interest” and “the country’s interest” is perfectly valid, and my use is just as valid.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    crutches never solve the underlying problem, they just make more problems. and you are correct, your post was in the political realm, I came in and tried to steer it other places. Nations should not declare "war" on criminals. Nations declare wars against nations or groups within nations. Note Jefferson and Barbary pirates. We already have plenty of laws on the books which deal with criminal behavior/tactics.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    sorry;;; I thought that we were discussing political boundaries
    which mark the edges of private property. . the fact that you and I
    gang together to own adjoining property which makes up a
    nation, for the defense of which we hire a goon named
    government, identifies a political union. . okay?

    and I can have a war on anyone who might choose to
    employ rape, as a tactic, or kidnapping, as a tactic;;; why not
    terror as a tactic? . I know, the "war on poverty" will come up,
    but that is a ruse for a campaign to seduce voters.

    and yes, the wall is a stupid crutch to make up for stupid laws
    which lure people here for the wrong reasons. . like welfare. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 6 months ago
    So we have a property owner who owns a road and who is under contract to allow people to use his road. And we have property owners along the border. Both of which, along with every other property owner in the US, may reasonably expect the government to protect their property by the retaliatory use of force. And no wall is necessary.

    Copied and pasted this part from another comment.
    "Of course we will have eliminated the income tax so that everybody will be included in the system, including immigrants. We will have put a stop to the war on drugs so that the criminal element is not drawn to us and we don't make criminals out of those already here. We will have eliminated welfare so they must support themselves when they come here. We will have eliminated the minimum wage so that the young and/or uneducated can get a job and get a start in life. We will welcome their hard work, productiveness and innovation. And we will have beaten the ever-lovin shit out of our enemies so badly that they will be afraid to show their heads out from under their rocks."


    At this point, who else is left? At this point the amount of criminals coming across our nations border is miniscule compared to the number of criminals crossing state borders within the country. We've already decided no wall is necessary. At this point, why do we need armed guards at the gates? At this point we can respect the rights of ALL individuals. Including our own.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The referenced site is anti-Objectivist and anti-AR. But I guess it might have a little use in the same context as Sun Tzu's advice to 'know your enemy'.
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    • MarkHunter replied 9 years, 6 months ago
  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You keep asserting that words 'have no clear meaning', now isolationist. Once again:
    Isolationist: noun
    "a policy of remaining apart from the affairs or interests of other groups, especially the political affairs of other countries"

    Then you say 'priority' is undefined. And agains:
    Priority: noun (pl. priorities)
    "a thing that is regarded as more important than another: housework didn't figure high on her list of priorities.
    • the fact or condition of being regarded or treated as more important: the safety of the country takes priority over any other matter.
    • the right to take precedence or to proceed before others: priority is given to those with press passes | [ as modifier ] : clear the left lane for priority traffic"

    You continue to find words you claim are undefined, when in fact they have very exact and clear definitions. Rational and logically reasoned thought requires a clear and exact understanding of concepts, context, and words. Only the irrational and/or the sophist refuse to accept a clear and common usage of a word, and attempt to spread their nonsensical interpretations.

    Then you purposely accuse me of calling AR's use of the phrases of "national self-interest" and "the country's interest" collectivist. I called you collectivist after I pointed out your mis-interpretation of AR's use and meaning of those phrases. A nation or country has no self-interest, it is not an entity, but is a creation of man.

    While I prefer to not think of you as irrational, (though your comments have that appearance), I think your intent of disruption and interference of those on a site identified as Objectivist is clear and is sophistry of the worst kind.
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    • MarkHunter replied 9 years, 6 months ago
  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is no such thing as "our self-interest", except for the oxymoronic amongst us.
    That concept is socialist/statist.
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  • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If your bitten 'lip is still bleeding', I can offer you half a roll of paper towels...it's all I have left; but hurry.

    :)
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  • Posted by kevinw 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thank you for posting the link to that article. Now everyone interested can read it and figure out where you're coming from. You are no Objectivist in any way, shape or form. There's only one word and it is so overused as to be almost useless, but it fits. Racism. And you and your ariwatch are glowing examples of it.

    In Ayn Rand's words; "Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry."

    This is what you have been pushing this whole time and trying to fault or blame Objectivism in the process.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I miss the point. Objectivism is a well thought out philosophy. It is not a club where a steering committee votes on who can follow the philosophy n their own life.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    actually, I did a search on this post for the word "we." It was overwhelmingly used by those against open immigration. When Os used it, primarily, Zen, Kevin and me, it was used in quotes or to make an argument extending the logic used on the anti-immigration supporter side. I suggest you read Anthem. A novella that refreshingly uses the word "I."
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Under the proper context Dr. Hudgin's asserts for a govt, living where one chooses does NOT mean a violation of YOUR property rights. There are no other ways to say that, yet many of you ignore that time and again. an international border is a political boundary. It is not private property that you own.
    even if you say a "war on terrorists" that is the same thing-it is a war on TACTICS, not a nation. You cannot have a war against tactics. You are a vet, John. You over many of us, know this. How many terrorist organizations have we added to our "war" arsenal since 9/11? The vast majority of refugees are just that-political refugees fleeing wars we keep making with no winner deciding a proper govt and fighting the real dangers to any proper society-ideas. Keep focused on the wall and Bernie Sanders will win the election.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Dr. Hudgins asserts that people have a "right to live
    where they choose." . that is not a right. . I may not
    choose to live in your house or on your property
    without your welcome.

    and the "war on terror" is misnamed;;; it is a war on
    terrorists. . and please, what is a war on culture? -- j

    p.s. "national defense," the primary requirement
    for a government, implies that property owners
    assent to being part of a nation, a place with
    geographic integrity = borders.
    .
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  • Posted by MarkHunter 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Unlike “isolationist” – which has no clear definition – “collectivist” does have a valid definition, actually several. The economic one is quite clear (see my earlier post). One of the others is clear enough. Quoting AR: “Collectivism holds that the individual has no rights, that his life and work belong to the group ... and that the group may sacrifice him at its own whim to its own interests.” Then there is the following: Given a group defined by a common attribute, collectivism means assuming that everyone in the group is identical in any respect one chooses to consider (not just the attribute that defined the group in the first place).

    Then there are those use the word “collectivism” in a hazy, meaningless, undefined sense, such as “the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it.” “Priority” is undefined, so you can bandy “collectivism” about where it makes no sense at all.

    In this immigration argument “collectivism” is used as a smear word, and what is being smeared is patriotism, the preservation of one’s culture and country.

    Foreigners make up a group, a collective. The nation’s government regulates the entry of each individual in that collective as one of the government’s proper functions.

    Then there is the question of which foreigners, if any, should be allowed in and how many per year. Since a foreigner has no right of entry, he can be kept out for any reason, a crazy reason, or no reason. The principal moral issue is that a country’s citizens have the right to decide, just as they have the right to decide who is the country’s president and congressmen. One decision is no more collectivist than the other.

    When Ayn Rand refers to “national self-interest” and “the country’s interest” with evident praise, you call it collectivist. I call it common sense.

    Those who value America will reject the Third World en masse and forever. You can call that collectivist until you’re black in the face. The alternative is the end of America as we now know its fading remains.
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  • -2
    Posted by MarkHunter 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It’s true that AR was against the U.S. entering World War II, and she tells how the word “isolationist” was used to smear those who agreed with that. By the way, if anyone else wants to know the details see “Ayn Rand on WW II” at
    ... ARIwatch.com/AynRandOnWWII.htm
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Aah, once again you take AR out of context in an attempt to distort the realities of Objectivism. AR was very precise in her use of words, concepts, context, and her knowledge of definitions, During the 30's of her discussion, there was a great deal of dissension in the US over involvement with European problems and proposed intervention by the US, particularly when war became imminent. FDR and most of the government wanted that involvement, a significant part of the population did not. The propagandists of the government contorted the language in order to downplay the 'patriotism' of the non-interventionist. And the national self-interest that AR described was that which derived from the self-interest of the individual US resident.

    You represent the word collectivism on this site to be not precisely defined. That couldn't be further from the truth.
    collectivism: noun
    "the practice or principle of giving a group priority over each individual in it.
    • the theory and practice of the ownership of land and the means of production by the people or the state."

    That definition is very well understood by the Objectivists of this site and is used very precisely to describe your sophistry. Trying to give a new definition (Patriotism and nation self-interest) to collectivism is to precisely describe your anti-Objectivism.
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