For some time now I have been meaning to share this website on Galt's Gulch. I first came across it in 2006 and have used it has become my favorite tool for teaching the NAP.
Posted by ewv 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
Maphesdus: "I generally try to avoid insulting other posters"
Maphesdus repeatedly insults, smears, and misrepresents Ayn Rand and others, ignoring and evading explanation with 'responses' consisting of more vituperative insults and misrepresentation.
Posted by ewv 10 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
"If Rand said it, it is so" characterizing supposed "logical fallacies in the writing in this thread". False. Further smearing as "gospel" doesn't change that.
I'm aware of that. I never said the NAP was the total absence of violence or force. What I'm saying is that sometimes a government must use force in initiation, not just in retaliation. A government which uses force only in retaliation would become incapable of preforming its essential functions, and therefore cease to be a government. Yet this is exactly what the NAP demands of government. Thus, the NAP leads to anarchy.
Well now, that's a bit insulting, don't you think? I generally try to avoid insulting other posters here as much as possible, and debate only by attacking ideas and arguments. Very rarely do I ever verbally attack the person making the arguments. I would suggest that you learn to do the same if you want to be taken seriously.
Anyway, since you did provide one legitimate argument before unleashing your angry deluge of insults, I will address that. You claim that Ayn Rand's philosophy is not based on the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP), yet even a cursory reading of her work demonstrates that that isn't true. The NAP was a very large part of her philosophy, so much so that she even proclaimed that it was the basic political principle of her ethics.
––––––––––––––––––– "The basic political principle of the Objectivist ethics is: no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. No man—or group or society or government—has the right to assume the role of a criminal and initiate the use of physical compulsion against any man. Men have the right to use physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. The ethical principle involved is simple and clear-cut: it is the difference between murder and self-defense. A holdup man seeks to gain a value, wealth, by killing his victim; the victim does not grow richer by killing a holdup man. The principle is: no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force."
Kittyhawk, this and other responses of yours here are right on the money. Your comments would be much appreciated among the members of https://www.facebook.com/groups/tolfa/
Yes, the ability of his intended victims to defend themselves and/or cooperate with others in self defense. Most potential victims would also most likely have purchased insurance, but with a critical difference in context - the insurers would no longer rely on the state for loss prevention or mitigation, they would be highly motivated to take care of this themselves.
What is becoming rather tiring about these type of questions is that they are defensive or argumentative but lack any real value because the questioners are continuously inventing "gotcha" scenarios which they have not thought through or placed in their proper context. From here on out I am not going to respond to this type off "what if" scenarios. Sorry, but you'll just have to work them out for yourself. It's easy to do. Just replace "what if?" with "how could I effectively deal with [insert your scenario] in a stateless society?".
I don't think this is a valid reason not to try. To say "We shouldn't get rid of coercive government because if we try freedom, someday, somehow, we might end up with a coercive government again" is a bit like saying, "I shouldn't remove this splinter from my foot, because someday, somehow I might get another one."
At this point, it's all hypothetical what the results would be if we eliminated government. But my hope is that people would step up to the challenge and find solutions to prevent future tyranny. Without the collusion of the media, politicians and courts, I find it hard to believe that a true sociopath could rise to power and wealth without showing his/her true colors. It would be our responsibility individually to not trade with bad people, and to warn others. (I think a society-wide public feedback system could be of benefit. Sort of like eBay's feedback on transactions, but covering more of life's interactions.) If freedom didn't succeed, and we wound up back where we started, at least we tried, and hopefully we learned something that can guide our actions in the future to better preserve freedom.
What about the person who does extremely violent acts so as to subdue all others and place them in a state of fear? Is there anything that "forbids" them from doing that?
Sure, that's a more natural phrasing, like "Do unto others as you would have done to you." The TOLFA question using "forbidden" (a similar word is "taboo") makes it sound to me like an external limitation, from rulers or society. But I think some people were interpreting it to be "forbidden" because of a self-imposed restriction.
< our business is to protect your fortune, so we necessarily assess risk public and private every day > Huh? Who is "we" here? And what if I don't want we's protection which is provided at who's expense?
I'm very sorry to hear that. and I do not disagree govt is the largest impediment and risk. However, our business is to protect your fortune, so we necessarily assess risk public and private every day. We protect inventors so they can make a profession out of inventing. Those are important property rights the anarchist would like to see go away
< In building that wealth, you had to rely on all sorts of protections legally >
Here we go again, applying statist conditions to a non state situation and making unfounded assumptions about how wealth is built. I have built and lost considerable wealth several times. In every instance, I built those businesses in spite of numerous legal and regulatory hurdles and lost them because of political and legal shenanigans placed in my way.
because people disagree, and the more wealth you have the more vulnerable you become. In building that wealth, you had to rely on all sorts of protections legally. The more success, the more the risk. You do not build wealth in a vacuum, and those risks include disagreements, divorced spouses, loss of inventory, customer dissatisfaction,employment grievances, etc. These all have to be planned for. Why do you insist on ignoring these very real issues among good men?
societies have governance not for the 85% of the time they peacefully trade and live next to one another, but for the 15% of the time when things break down for whatever reason. The only way to deal with that 15% of the time is to have a firm philosophical foundation that sets up a system (capitalism) and logical tenets (laws) that allow judicial remedy to be applied. Whether it is private or not, it is still based on laws. That's governance. Private individuals can be corrupted too, however, I think most functions of government can be carried out privately. I draw the line at national/international defense. and I am not in favor of a bunch of legislators legislating. IT's not necessary.
They do agree in advance. What's annoying is that when a party loses, they may or may not adhere to that agreement. Alimony and child support payments come to mind, royalty payments, sheltering of assets, etc
Previous comments... You are currently on page 2.
Maphesdus repeatedly insults, smears, and misrepresents Ayn Rand and others, ignoring and evading explanation with 'responses' consisting of more vituperative insults and misrepresentation.
Anyway, since you did provide one legitimate argument before unleashing your angry deluge of insults, I will address that. You claim that Ayn Rand's philosophy is not based on the Non-Aggression Principle (NAP), yet even a cursory reading of her work demonstrates that that isn't true. The NAP was a very large part of her philosophy, so much so that she even proclaimed that it was the basic political principle of her ethics.
–––––––––––––––––––
"The basic political principle of the Objectivist ethics is: no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. No man—or group or society or government—has the right to assume the role of a criminal and initiate the use of physical compulsion against any man. Men have the right to use physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use. The ethical principle involved is simple and clear-cut: it is the difference between murder and self-defense. A holdup man seeks to gain a value, wealth, by killing his victim; the victim does not grow richer by killing a holdup man. The principle is: no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force."
~ Ayn Rand, “The Objectivist Ethics,” The Virtue of Selfishness, page 36
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/retali...
–––––––––––––––––––
Tell me, in light of this particular passage, how do you support your claim that Objectivism is not based on the NAP?
What is becoming rather tiring about these type of questions is that they are defensive or argumentative but lack any real value because the questioners are continuously inventing "gotcha" scenarios which they have not thought through or placed in their proper context. From here on out I am not going to respond to this type off "what if" scenarios. Sorry, but you'll just have to work them out for yourself. It's easy to do. Just replace "what if?" with "how could I effectively deal with [insert your scenario] in a stateless society?".
At this point, it's all hypothetical what the results would be if we eliminated government. But my hope is that people would step up to the challenge and find solutions to prevent future tyranny. Without the collusion of the media, politicians and courts, I find it hard to believe that a true sociopath could rise to power and wealth without showing his/her true colors. It would be our responsibility individually to not trade with bad people, and to warn others. (I think a society-wide public feedback system could be of benefit. Sort of like eBay's feedback on transactions, but covering more of life's interactions.) If freedom didn't succeed, and we wound up back where we started, at least we tried, and hopefully we learned something that can guide our actions in the future to better preserve freedom.
Here we go again, applying statist conditions to a non state situation and making unfounded assumptions about how wealth is built. I have built and lost considerable wealth several times. In every instance, I built those businesses in spite of numerous legal and regulatory hurdles and lost them because of political and legal shenanigans placed in my way.
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