Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?
Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.
Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.
A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]
Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.
During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.
Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.
Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”
The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”
Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.
I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?
Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.
A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]
Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.
During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.
Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.
Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”
The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”
Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.
I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?
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Which I did.
Sigh.
So now I call myself an independent.
Me also a dino carnivore, me is adverse to any limp-wristed namby pamby NAP, especially toward those who wish to disarm me, tell me what I'm supposed to PC think about eating meat or climate change and expect me to bow down to any Muslim whim, get swarmed by mooching illegals or tolerate some "I feel like a woman today" guy following a little girl into the ladies room.
The best defense is offense against any evil aggressive affront.
I am dino~
Hear me ROAR!
The foundation principles, for me, are the same: Free Minds, Free Markets, never initiate force or fraud.
Every year at her Ford Hall Forum talks someone would ask her, "Miss Rand, why do you refuse to support the Libertarian Party?" Her answers, seen by many as condescending, were much the same as you might give to your difficult brother-in-law who shows up uninvited at your party and proceeds to give all your beer away to HIS friends, whom he also invited to your party. My libertarian friends at the time dabbled in Objectivism, but preferred their own versions. "Just like Objectivism, EXCEPT for XXX"
That "XXX" could be any of various tenets, such as (1) unilateral, peaceful co-existence with everyone--this might be the so-called NAP, (2) establishment of competitive governments in the US, (3) vegetarianism, (4) rejection of copyright, including that on Rand's copyrighted material.
Those numbered items are not "straw men". I observed every one of them, and even found myself contributing to the efforts of people working on point (4).
Rand distinguished carefully between Objectivism (which she famously could define while "standing on one foot") and Libertarianism, which seemed to have a whim-of-the-moment definition. I think she saw Libertarians as not having fundamental principles.
The biggest hurdle is step one learning how to think independently. The second is observing the nature of things and then testing the observations for anything useful AND then to keep testing as new information comes to light or is observed. The third is forming a set of personal moral values and ethics and judging what to do with the findings of step two.
If honest with yourself it will guide all sorts of choices. Secular, religious, commercial economic whatever.
If dishonest with yourself it won't stop you from choosing the wrong path nor absolve you of the consequences.
The reason Libertarians have been said to be not objectivist is they show little evidence of applying objectivism while the Rinos of the let and the extremist of the left show no evidence of using such a validation system as objectivism.
The rest especially when a group grope answer is sought is BS. Only one vote is needed based on one set of observations and one individuals morals, values and ethics. And most never make it to much less beyond step one, For once Esceptico got it right. But I would argue choosing communism or nazi-ism is an example of the failure to apply the the three rules or laws of objectivism starting with number one. It' pure Plato collectivism and that's where while admitting libertarians can be anything they want also shows why they are not using objectivism especially the third step.
But thanks for stating the prime objective of Libertarians. I can agree NAP as long as the second line says has the right to defend oneself and one's family against aggression initiatied by others. I assume it's there somewhere ---maybe?
But stating they can be left wing extremists was a step too far. In the end you ...lose. I see that as a major failure in the use of false premises
then the purism of "if you ain't pure Objectivist, you ain't s**t"...so sad...
i like Harry Browne the best...Life Free in an Unfree World...
and Eric Hoffer...True Believer...
or my spinach loving friend...I am what I am ...good old popeye the sailor man...
The LP, at least as it has been run to date, is all about taking and publicizing idealist, absolutist positions, and hoping to draw the major parties toward those positions following the model of the Socialist Party in the 1920s (which never elected anyone to a higher office than mayor of Milwaukee, but ended up with the Democrats adopting its entire platform). But as long as the LP follows that model, it makes more sense for gradualist candidates to run in the major parties, not the LP. Of course, Johnson did run as a Republican in 2012, but got nowhere.
Objectivism could be purged of these contradictions and come out stronger, but I don't think anyone in the organizations wants to take on the job. It's like the situation 60 years ago, after Stalin's death, when no other Soviet wanted to be the first to denounce him.
Here's the one particular sticking point I've picked up. I quote Rand: "Just as the United States had the right to invade Nazi Germany, so the United States has the right to invade Soviet Russia or any other slave pen." I can't imagine a classic Libertarian ever saying that.
The chief flaw that Objectivist notice is moral equivalency. That is, a Libertarian, as the original poster defines it, considers a war of liberation inherently wrong and unjust. Not so an Objectivist.
Ummm... That sounds pretty libertarian to me...
As a libertarian, (note the small "L"), along with the NAP, I also view the life another person chooses to live as their business, not mine.
Just as my life choices are mine, not the concern or responsibility of others.
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