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Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?

Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.

Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.

A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]

Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.

During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.

Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.

Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”

The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”

Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.

I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?


All Comments


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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 9 months ago
    I thought I was libertarian until the Libertarian Party trotted forth Gary Johnson for me to take a hard look at.
    Which I did.
    Sigh.
    So now I call myself an independent.
    Me also a dino carnivore, me is adverse to any limp-wristed namby pamby NAP, especially toward those who wish to disarm me, tell me what I'm supposed to PC think about eating meat or climate change and expect me to bow down to any Muslim whim, get swarmed by mooching illegals or tolerate some "I feel like a woman today" guy following a little girl into the ladies room.
    The best defense is offense against any evil aggressive affront.
    I am dino~
    Hear me ROAR!
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think she liked the cult idea. Under Rand, only the “Inner Circle” members were Objectivists, all others were Students of Objectivism.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    An astute observation. I say that as one who intimately knew two of the “inner circle” in 1960s. Your analysis also explains the dogmatic requirements she demanded, and underscores Michael Shermer’s conclusion about Objectivism in the chapter “The Unlikeliest Cult” of his book “Why People Believe Weird Things.”
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 8 years, 9 months ago
    For the "reductionists" who want to argue every period ,comma, word, sentence structure, etc., go for it.

    The foundation principles, for me, are the same: Free Minds, Free Markets, never initiate force or fraud.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The state never protects individuals against aggression committed by the state itself. This is why the idea that the state protects one from (all) aggression is is a logical fallacy.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Initially I thought that, too. I was around when she started her anti-libertarian rants claiming they were plagiarizing her work (which was not true). But she, and the dogmatic side of Objectivism kept up the rampage --- even until today.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I do not see how NAP is anti-state. The purpose of the state is, in essence, to protect each individual against agression.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think you are right, but I don’t understand how that applies to my question. Sorry, but sometimes I need a lot of explanation.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Rand and war present another interesting issue we at the Gulch should discuss. She seemed inconsistent me because she sometimes treated the citizens of the other country as guilty and morally subject to attack simply by being citizens of the other country---even if they opposed the government in power. That, according to her was tribalism and wrong. But, let’s not get sidetracked in this discussion.
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  • Posted by $ Snezzy 8 years, 9 months ago
    I saw Rand disagreeing in public with self-styled Libertarians, some of whom were part of a Libertarian Party. Their main failing, as I saw it, was to ask for her support while at the same time using various re-arrangements of her ideas, and--when pressed--denying that the ideas were hers at all.

    Every year at her Ford Hall Forum talks someone would ask her, "Miss Rand, why do you refuse to support the Libertarian Party?" Her answers, seen by many as condescending, were much the same as you might give to your difficult brother-in-law who shows up uninvited at your party and proceeds to give all your beer away to HIS friends, whom he also invited to your party. My libertarian friends at the time dabbled in Objectivism, but preferred their own versions. "Just like Objectivism, EXCEPT for XXX"

    That "XXX" could be any of various tenets, such as (1) unilateral, peaceful co-existence with everyone--this might be the so-called NAP, (2) establishment of competitive governments in the US, (3) vegetarianism, (4) rejection of copyright, including that on Rand's copyrighted material.

    Those numbered items are not "straw men". I observed every one of them, and even found myself contributing to the efforts of people working on point (4).

    Rand distinguished carefully between Objectivism (which she famously could define while "standing on one foot") and Libertarianism, which seemed to have a whim-of-the-moment definition. I think she saw Libertarians as not having fundamental principles.
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  • Posted by Rex_Little 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It was widely believed at the time that Rand's motivation for denouncing the LP was that John Hospers (their first Presidential candidate) was another one of those who, like Greenspan, had been kicked out of her inner circle. Whether that's true or not, her stated reasons didn't hold much water. She accused Libertarians of "stealing my ideas without giving me credit", but Hospers' campaign book, Libertarianism, quoted her books directly--hundreds of times--with a footnoted reference for each quote.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago
    Objectivism is not a political party. It's a method by which any belief or control sysem - secular, religious commericial whatever - can use to check their premises and their beliefs.

    The biggest hurdle is step one learning how to think independently. The second is observing the nature of things and then testing the observations for anything useful AND then to keep testing as new information comes to light or is observed. The third is forming a set of personal moral values and ethics and judging what to do with the findings of step two.

    If honest with yourself it will guide all sorts of choices. Secular, religious, commercial economic whatever.

    If dishonest with yourself it won't stop you from choosing the wrong path nor absolve you of the consequences.

    The reason Libertarians have been said to be not objectivist is they show little evidence of applying objectivism while the Rinos of the let and the extremist of the left show no evidence of using such a validation system as objectivism.

    The rest especially when a group grope answer is sought is BS. Only one vote is needed based on one set of observations and one individuals morals, values and ethics. And most never make it to much less beyond step one, For once Esceptico got it right. But I would argue choosing communism or nazi-ism is an example of the failure to apply the the three rules or laws of objectivism starting with number one. It' pure Plato collectivism and that's where while admitting libertarians can be anything they want also shows why they are not using objectivism especially the third step.

    But thanks for stating the prime objective of Libertarians. I can agree NAP as long as the second line says has the right to defend oneself and one's family against aggression initiatied by others. I assume it's there somewhere ---maybe?

    But stating they can be left wing extremists was a step too far. In the end you ...lose. I see that as a major failure in the use of false premises
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree with you. It sounds libertarian to me, too. That is exactly why I have not understood either the claim an Objectivist cannot be a libertarian or the malevolence with which the statement is usually presented to me.
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  • Posted by mia767ca 8 years, 9 months ago
    i went thru the schism in Objectivism as i am sure you did also...what a disappointing mess...

    then the purism of "if you ain't pure Objectivist, you ain't s**t"...so sad...

    i like Harry Browne the best...Life Free in an Unfree World...

    and Eric Hoffer...True Believer...

    or my spinach loving friend...I am what I am ...good old popeye the sailor man...
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Johnson and some of the LP's past candidates try to compromise with the public by taking gradualist positions (such as to legalize marijuana but not all drugs) even though the party's platform is absolutist. This is understandable but has the drawback that it invites accusations of contradiction and hypocrisy.

    The LP, at least as it has been run to date, is all about taking and publicizing idealist, absolutist positions, and hoping to draw the major parties toward those positions following the model of the Socialist Party in the 1920s (which never elected anyone to a higher office than mayor of Milwaukee, but ended up with the Democrats adopting its entire platform). But as long as the LP follows that model, it makes more sense for gradualist candidates to run in the major parties, not the LP. Of course, Johnson did run as a Republican in 2012, but got nowhere.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 8 years, 9 months ago
    What you've experienced is called "rational delusion." When an ideological group becomes extreme in their beliefs, they take on the trappings of a cult, where ideological purity is demanded of any who declare themselves followers. It is ironic that Rand was infuriated by feverish Libertarians, and would be disdainful of Objectivists who choose to act as a cult.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago
    For the same reason that Rand kicked out Alan Greenspan in the '60s for aesthetic disagreement. Objectivism has always been much more her personal empire, ruled by her whims, than it was ever about a consistent set of principles.

    Objectivism could be purged of these contradictions and come out stronger, but I don't think anyone in the organizations wants to take on the job. It's like the situation 60 years ago, after Stalin's death, when no other Soviet wanted to be the first to denounce him.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago
    The NAP does not come in flavors. The NAP is categorically ant-state. If my understanding that objectivism is essentially "minarchist" is correct.and if a libertarian is one "who subscribes to the NAP", then logically objectivists are not libertarians and vice versa. The two are mutually exclusive.
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  • Posted by jscrump59 8 years, 9 months ago
    I view the "Strike" as activist enterprise. In going against the status quo by withholding their intellect they were performing a action against their antagonists however low key. The antagonists recognized that productive talent was being withheld from them and that they viewed it as a hostile action.
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  • Posted by DLBPDX 8 years, 9 months ago
    As an individual who agrees primarily with bot ojbectivism and libertarian thinking, it my sole observation that Rand may have been over generalizing Libertarians as all hippies etc... perhaps her basis was on the then past newly formed Libertarian party platform in the United States of the early mid 1970s era.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 9 months ago
    Objectivism and libertarianism overlap, and far more than many give them credit for. One could almost say Objectivism is a subset of Libertarianism.

    Here's the one particular sticking point I've picked up. I quote Rand: "Just as the United States had the right to invade Nazi Germany, so the United States has the right to invade Soviet Russia or any other slave pen." I can't imagine a classic Libertarian ever saying that.

    The chief flaw that Objectivist notice is moral equivalency. That is, a Libertarian, as the original poster defines it, considers a war of liberation inherently wrong and unjust. Not so an Objectivist.
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    Posted by InfamousEric 8 years, 9 months ago
    'I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.'

    Ummm... That sounds pretty libertarian to me...

    As a libertarian, (note the small "L"), along with the NAP, I also view the life another person chooses to live as their business, not mine.

    Just as my life choices are mine, not the concern or responsibility of others.
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