I agree. We often focus on the religious extremists, but most of them function normally, i.e. they don't hear voices telling them to tie up their kids and kill him or anything like that.

"They will of course claim to be quiorboys, one and all when standing before a judge."
Mark Marotta said something similar to what you said--- maybe they find religion after they're caught. He just suggested a different possible reason. But you're both saying maybe people claim to find religion AFTER they're caught committing a crime.

Yes. All those things are at least somewhat controversial. It makes no sense for him to say people are denied all the great benefits of a set of political opinions b/c they belief in religion. Maybe they don't those things (progressive taxation, "sensible" gun laws, etc) for other reasons. The author buys the narrative they really do want them but people are manipulating their religion. Maybe that's true sometimes, but the author makes no case whatsoever for it and make the hasty assumption that they would want those things and benefit from them.

Very interesting. It may also not be causal correlated. There may be some third factor that affects GDP and belief in religion.

My definition of "primitive" societies include those that predate Greco/Roman mythology by thousands of years. It includes those of today's world that reside in the tropical rainforests of South America and southern Asia who have only recently come to the attention of our own "enlightened" viewpoints. Who knows "why" they came to live in groups without killing each other. Certainly NOBODY can say for certain their belief systems had nothing to do with that decision.

My best friend is an atheist and an immigrant from Finland. She is probably the most basically moral person that I know BECAUSE she always tells the truth and lives in the realm of reality.

She makes no effort to put anyone else down and she has a value system that is second-to-none.

I think that she is the epitome of a moral atheist.

If I lived in New Mexico , I'd probably be a VERY prosperous entrepreneur.

Oh yeah, real good mudslinging there. Please, explain to me how my RATIONAL post yielded your irrational post.

Please, once again, point out where my post is wrong. It is FACT.

Christians base their morality on the unchanging Word of God. It never has changed, it never will change. It *is*. As God said to Abraham, "I AM". Eternal, unchanging, reliable, an utterly firm foundation.

Atheists' moral beliefs HAVE NO UNCHANGING FOUNDATION. How in the world can you argue with that? What are you going to base your moral foundation on? The law of nature? Whoever is strongest wins? If that's your morality, then so be it... I suppose that's unchanging. But I predict that's not YOUR morality, and you would appreciate it if someone was prosecuted criminally for assaulting your teenager to take his bike simply because he was stronger.

There is *nothing* for Atheists to base a common moral structure on, period. There is no underlying moral law like Christians have, period.

It's not a slam, it's the truth. So quit with the freaking mudslinging.

I’m just popping in for the drama. I didn’t vote at all. Lemme see if I got this right: christian --good, athesist --bad. That’s your sum message and you want to know why you were down voted. Pffft. I say you belong in the dog house. (which that doesn’t have to be a bad place to be. Mr. Morality, himself, Jim Baker and his lovely bat-eye wife Tammy use to own their very own custom air-conditioned dog house. Life is better for christians even when they are worthless pieces of dung, no?

To any of you who down voted this, please explain why? Besides I pointed out the truth a out your atheistic beliefs. They have no unchanging basis for morality. Your morality can change over time. Mine cannot.

I hadn't thought about that applying to the South East. Here in New Mexico construction always takes longer than it should. Why? Because they can build year-round. They don't fear a whether deadline.

Bravo! Amen!

Good point.

Too bad I have to pay give you a vote up. Soon my participation will earn me that privilege.

And prior to those "... primitive societies ..."? Did they get together to better protect themselves because they believed in a god?

Thoughts on "choosing to believe": since you cannot actually prove that "...there is no higher being", it is obvious that you yourself have chosen to believe in non-existence. Yes, I know, I cannot prove that one (or more) does exist.

Thoughts on "proof": does the fact that there is no incontrovertible proof of the existence of higher beings constitute proof that He/She/They do not exist? The dustbin of history is filled with "proof" of this and that where later discovery and illumination has rendered those proofs false.

My choice of wording "I choose to believe" is based on my informed, voluntary choice to believe the scientific evidence. There is much proof derived from studies of anthropology that the evolution of ethical behaviors in primitive societies around the world was based on THEIR belief in higher beings. The fact that YOU choose not to believe has no bearing on THEIR belief systems and the social behaviors that evolved from that belief.