they are always a fail

We have one of those also. When it needed rennovated it was suggested we move it to where the old airport was located. Plenty of parking, room to develop and easy access to the new airport. Instead we spent millions expanding the existing building that is sandwiched in dowtown and is still too small to attract large groups.

I'm pretty sure that most of Americans today, if they read your first paragraph, would be confused and uninterested.... so there's not much of a mystery really. Completely disgusting and disheartening however.

I always think back to the original colonists when I think of freedom. They were a diverse group of religious outcasts, criminals, anti-establishment folks, dissenters, entrepreneurs, individualists, and so on. It was always in the best interest of such people to respect each other's rights, defend themselves against further/future oppression, and demand privacy to pursue their own interests. Only such a diverse group of free-thinking individuals could have produced such a document as the US Constitution, whose primary function was to limit the power of government and protect the freedoms we enjoyed in the early days.

Why we take this freedom for granted and allow elected individuals to degrade, deform, reinterpret and otherwise defame our forefathers' intentions is a mystery to me.

I think we need to start pointing out how all of these government pushes are for CONTROL over the individual and to remind people what, and how important individual freedoms are... we take them for granted because we know nothing different and without the protection of individual rights we are no longer America and don't deserve to be. It's time to find your principles and stand by them or suffer the consequences. Corruption, and ignoring corruption, is equally dangerous.

Except for my daughter, I don't think any one in my wife's family really cares. They just want to leave everything status quo. I'm not sure about my brothers and their families. The best I can hope for is to save myself, and possibly my daughter, and even she might not be willing to accept what it will take.

as LS said, a colossal, difficult task.
"the higher powers that be" keeping us safe and the poor fed all look and act like the person you talk to at the DMV. and that makes anyone feel safer?! It is so difficult having these conversations with family. BUt you will make inroads.
The tea party is going for chaos and mayhem and the benevolent Congress is authorizing spending and subsequent monopoly money all in the name anti-chaos?

It's a colossal, difficult task. :( They both argued for safety over freedom. Which means they both argued for socialist ideas... it's been done before and didn't end well. They freedom and safety are slipping away at an equal pace...only it's the gov they should fear. What I really get out of this is that too many don't want to do the work (mentally or physically) of what it might take to maintain freedom...and getting flushed down a safe, secure, fair, equal toilet is a better option. They are ignorant of the consequences of what they're saying. They'd rather pay to feed the beast than deal with it outright. Do you think any of them would be willing to read a book or two? Not necessarily AS...there are plenty of eye openers for beginners out there to start with. Keep up the good fight Wonk. It's exhausting, but may be worth it. At least they responded as much as they did...gives you something work with, response wise. They could have ignored it completely.

An excerpt...

My older brother: "...have you even thought about what your life would be like if we eliminated all social programs? If people are homeless and hungry with no options they turn to crime. Is that the society you want to live in? Wouldn't you rather spend a small percentage of your tax dollars (less than defense) on actual welfare so that you can keep the level of relative safety you enjoy now?"

Me: "Yes, I have thought long and hard on this issue... an industrialized community with no public schools, no public water, no public sewer, no public garbage disposal, no public roads, no public traffic signs, no public stoplights, no public snow removal, no public parks, libraries, museums, fire departments etc. It is scary to think about at first. How long would chaos reign before capitalism worked its magic and we regained the benefits of industrialization? I don't have an answer, but I have definitely contemplated means by which privatization could be accomplished with as little chaos as possible."

My mother: "Sorry but I'm not driving up I95 for a visit with every community having a different privatized 'security'(?). Sounds a bit like the wild west. No thanks I'd rather spend taxes to ensure that there are higher powers to keep all these community 'security' powers in check. I'm pretty sure if you put this idea up for a vote the majority would say please raise my taxes as much as you need to keep our society. No wonder so many of the republicans I worked with were so busy stockpiling safes in their homes with guns and gold. If your vision is the Tea Party's agenda they need to let everyone know they want to destroy society instead of just pretending they don't like the affordable care act. I'm sure some order will be restored eventually but not until most the poorest are eliminated, oh was that the plan all along? And how do you get rid of the self appointed 'Czar of America' who comes into power when the government is reduced/eliminated. No matter how good or bad he/she is they were not elected and their term will never run out till someone bigger and 'badder' comes along. Oh and how many casualties in the battles to try to get the power. Sorry I see Government as a necessary evil."

Me: "The Internet is private, and yet we've managed to implement standards through organizations like http://www.w3.org/. Most browsers these days render web pages similarly and support AJAX, JavaScript, etc. I'm making this post on my iPad, but I'll be able to read it on my PC, my Android phone, and my Kindle. We don't need government to impose standards in order to have standards. Getting back to the point, I think [unnamed friend] has the right of it with the question 'which programs/agencies do we keep/shrink/discard' if the taxpayers (or voters) refuse to pay more taxes to get our country out of debt?"

...

This is a tiny fraction of the dialog, I can't say it would have occurred a couple of months ago. I knew full well that I was going to get jumped going into it, and the original benign question, "How much will Obamacare cost the government (taxpayers)", wouldn't actually remain the focus of the debate.

I don't care what my family thinks of me anymore, and I don't care how long it takes me to improve my debate skills in order to keep a debate on point. If they choose to believe that I, the most prosperous among them, have suddenly lost my mind, so be it. I've been silent for too long...

Woo hoo :) Thanks Wonk!

Your seeds are growing roots in me... Just for the record.

PC, and guilt, and fear are alive and well. It is a revelation most of us in here have experienced and are trying daily to combat. Waking the comatose is a big job. keep trying and don't be silenced. :)

Funny you should say this. As I was leaving the school the other day some teachers and other employees were just hanging out in a room talking about how well the Grandparents Day program went and somehow the subject turned to all day kindergarten (which we've had for 3 years now) and I said "I'm so glad when my boys were in kinder it was only half day...I would've been livid to have to leave them the whole day. And now they're pushing for mandatory preschool....geeze what's next...taking them at birth because the gov knows best?" A teacher said, "they want preschool because kindergarten isn't like kinder used to be it's more like 1st grade." I said, "The government should NOT be making these decisions." Then I got a bunch of funny looks and silence. As I was leaving I wondered what they must say about me when I'm not around and then I had the thought that some day a light is going to go off in some of their heads and they're going says, "Ohhh THAT'S what she was talking about." I hope I'm planting seeds. And I sure hope they grow roots soon.

same thing with convention centers...

Those stadiums are a joke. Pittsburgh did this and I see little or no benefit. Our old stadium could have been renovated. The problem is the teams make more money by selling the expensive closed in boxes. So they want new stadiums with more box seats. Local businesses have always complained that on game days the parking is so Bad that thousands come to the games but not to shop. Pittsburgh built 3 rivers stadium in the early 70 's for about 40 million dollars. They owed 45 million on it when the demolished it.

this is a good chart to show.
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials...
If that increased spending was back in the pockets of americans, jobs would be created by the millions. People do not, in general, pout dollars under their mattress. They spend them, invest them, create and build businesses with them. This is proof that the govt is the most inefficient system to handle this issues.

That was a great idea Wonky. I can't help but think of times when a flower grew somewhere that I didn't remember planting a seed. You probably planted seeds without even knowing it. I find people often wake up slowly. At first they realize they have not been paying attention for so long that they don't feel informed enough to take a position. The more they pay attention the angrier they get. When I started following politics years ago my parents listened to me just to be polite. Now they initiate the conversations and are more fired up than I am. Keep up the great work.

This is something we all have come up against. I always think of Eddie Willers when I hit this. He knew. He saw. He talked with John, yet when the decision time came he didn't choose his life.

it's the last picture that bugs me. everyone has brought their laptop. ??? there should be more beer, less AR surfing at the meeting, IMO

I had a recent convert, it took over 3 years. One big issue is helping the needy. I argue, it is the responsibility of local gov’t, state on down. I suggest, they assume that means they won’t be cared for, actually they will only more efficiently. My Mom had a career helping the needy through the church, many battered women. She would make sure the donations went to help the family and not that drunk bastard who’s smacking his wife around; she was tough. Every town needs someone like that. She had no problem raising money for the cause; she had a reputation and people eagerly gave of their own free will. Local gov’t governs best. The more affluent will give for a little thanks and recognition. When they get vilified and robbed they are more resistant to big government and the needy are hurt. When you argue the rising tide of capitalism lifts all boats you’ll get their attention. What I think is simple and persuasive is, I want you to be free, you want me to pay for what you perceive is a good idea; enslave me. In these discussions, you have to listen to a lot of fantastic stuff and just let it go; pick your spots.
Say, If I was to rob you wouldn't it be clever if I did it in the name of the greater good? Hypocrisy is ultra-evil. Good Luck

the problem is we can't even get down to those kinds of brass tacks issues. In my former VERY conservative town, they are pushing a baseball stadium to be built downtown(of course a tax levied proposition) for the "good" of the economic community. Turns out if you follow the money-the "conservative" mayor is doing a little quid pro quo-ing. The town is up to their eyeballs in debt-they own 300 new police cars that sit around waiting for the President to fly to town, 2 whole trains, more construction equipment than the largest construction company in Colorado , and building a water pipeline for less than 60 miles that's scheduled to cost 3 billion (the entire Keystone pipeline was estimated at 6 Billion and over 2000 miles). My former town kicked out a state legislator for voting in gun control laws, but at the same time, ignores this shit. we're doomed

Interesting. My current status is dumbed down a bit, but it deals with "the needy" as well (because it keeps popping up):

"I believe that getting something for nothing fundamentally diminishes the human spirit. The satisfaction of knowing that we earned what we have is fundamental to our ability to enjoy it. This is true of respect, trust, money, and property among other things.

"Once earned, we may choose to offer what we have to others in need. We can leverage earned respect and trust to make acquaintances aware of worthy causes. We can offer money and property directly to others in need.

"Let those of us who earned what we have never forget that it is better to offer those in need an opportunity to earn respect, trust, money and property than to just hand it over to them."

For several years now, I've been putting off joining http://www.charmcityobjectivists.org. I'm not sure why. Fear of disappointment? Work & family? I still struggle to think Objectively in real time. More and more I'm coming to see that face-to-face would take things to a whole new level. Perhaps it's exactly what I need.

we need a Gulch streaming video feature

My technique is pretty strange. I have half a dozen copies of "Atlas Shrugged" and "The Fountainhead" in my house at any one time. Whenever there's been a discussion (or argument) about politics or business in my house, I've given them away. I've given the books to my sister, her friends, my friends that come over, family members. I was half joking with my husband earlier when I said that I was going to give them away this Halloween to the teenagers that visit our house -- along with some candy, of course.

I've never had success talking politics on Facebook. I think most people are apathetic, but there's also the factor of people not wanting to argue with their friends. On Twitter, however, I find the arguments and discussions to work well. There are lots of people to follow that will get discussions going.