Maybe Authoritarianism Is What It's All About

Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years ago to Politics
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[Repost to correct error in title.] I see most mainstream politicians and are not that radically different. They accept a bipartisan consensus of the government managing things, taking responsibility for the economy, and gov't spending remaining a big fraction of GDP. So when I read about a bitter partisan divide, I'm baffled. I just don't get why anyone is so fired up. This article in the NYT says it's because of levels of authoritarianism. I'm not of this answer, but it's better than any others I've heard. If I'm right, politicians are convincing people to hat one another over minor personality differences. The article quotes a paper titled Idealogues Without Issues. I love that title. "The three authors use a long-established authoritarian scale — based on four survey questions about which childhood traits parents would like to see in their offspring — that asks voters to choose between independence or respect for their elders; curiosity or good manners; self-reliance or obedience; and being considerate or well-behaved. Those respondents who choose respect for elders, good manners, obedience and being well-behaved are rated more authoritarian. "The power behind the labels “liberal” and “conservative” to predict strong preferences for the ideological in-group is based largely in the social identification with those groups, not in the organization of attitudes associated with the labels. That is, even when we are discussing ideology — a presumably issue-based concept — we are not entirely discussing issues. "Identity-based ideology can drive affective ideological polarization even when individuals are naïve about policy. The passion and prejudice with which we approach politics is driven not only by what we think, but also powerfully by who we think we are." Affective means emotionally driven. I had to look it up.


All Comments

  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Rejecting unprincipled pragmatism is not about "purity". Ideas and principles matter here in reality. The rights of the individual as the founding principle of this country matter, which is why they must be stressed and protected, especially with the dominance of "disparate political views" from unprincipled pragmatists and collectivists, including range of the moment anti-intellectual conservatives who couldn't care less about here now result.

    Trump is doing nothing for individual freedom. Whatever he temporarily does that is good for the economy in some way despite his statism and unpredictability is an accident drowned in the combination of his bad policies and the downward, collectivist, authoritarian trend of the country. His anti-intellectual emotional shoot-from the hip thinking is adding to that. Range of the moment 'man on the white horse' and "'purists' shut up" does not help.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I could care less about the purity of his motivation. I'm more interested in the results that have benefited individual freedom. Rock hard purity of principle may be emotionally satisfying, but it seldom yields result in a nation with as many widely disparate political views as we have.
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    Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Electing Trump was a power struggle between competing authoritarians. His policies have been mixed and unpredictable but he has not done even the good ones on behalf of the rights of the individual.
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  • Posted by term2 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Trump is not anti collectivism philosophically. He is definitely far less collectivist than the establishment of both parties. I think the swamp is the people in power who want to use politics to advance their own hidden goals
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Statism isn't a self-energizing cycle, it comes from false premises of irrationalism, altruism and collectivism. Its growth is fed as the premises are followed toward their logical conclusions. Most people don't fully believe it and object to steps that are too large, but once a precedent is established at a new level, people become accustomed to the new level of controls and entitlements which become the base for the next step. The 'cycle' won't be broken until the premises are eliminated and stop feeding it.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    There is no path to immediate reform. The spread and understanding of radically new ideas and ways of thinking throughout the culture, overturning the opposition of the established intellectuals, take time and thought that is a lot more than an "amazing communicator".

    Ayn Rand did that but could not do it all alone or all at once, which is why she spent the last couple of decades of her life after publishing Atlas Shrugged publicly speaking and writing on non-fiction -- in defense and explanation of her philosophy -- and on contemporary trends. She urged that those who agreed with her ideas go into the professions where they could spread and apply them. Understanding that and what is required is far more and much different than the emotional conservatives running around with their inconsistencies, believing their slogans about tradition and faith will make any improvements as they undermine reason and egoism as required for political freedom and pursuit of happiness.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    You can think what you like about Republicans and Democrats. The facts are that the Democrat agenda and its record is openly and explicitly more statist and collectivist across the board with few exceptions (like anti abortion). In particular presidents and candidates from McGovern to Obama and Clinton have been far worse in their opposition to American individualism.
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  • Posted by 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    " Statism is a cycle that continues to feeds itself."
    Yes. I say the Constitution is broken; it doesn't have teeth to limit gov't. ewv will say no document can have teeth. It depends on the philosophy of the people.

    I wish there were some amazing communicator who could broker some great agreement to limit gov't. That's probably the person-on-a-white-horse wish.

    I don't see an obvious path to reducing gov't size/intrusiveness.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    He doesn't know what any of his slogans mean. With his emotional thinking in speaking in terms of sales promotion superlatives they don't mean much of anything. The slogan "draining the swamp" was not his idea. Someone in his campaign suggested it and he rejected it, then later tried it, found that it worked up the crowds, and continued using it. Today it seems to mean to him only railing against those in government who don't go along with his own policies.
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  • Posted by Solver 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    The more Obama got away with, the more Trump can get away with. Statism is a cycle that continues to feeds itself.
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    Posted by 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    You accept that he's actually anti collectivism at heart, and I do not. I have no idea what "swamp draining" means, and I suspect President Trump doesn't know either.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    The Republicans are in control now and imposing increasing statism, far beyond what they would have done decades ago, but are still behind where the Democrats would be if back in power like they were under Obama, Pelosi and Reid. You see it today with the antics of Pelosi and Schumer. In the name of 'responsibility' the Republicans are more 'conservative' in implementing and imposing the same basic premises. It matters which group is more extreme only in the rate at which is imposed.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    The tea party movement began as a rejection of the statism near the end of the Bush administration and the subsequent statist onslaught under Obama. A lot of them found and liked Atlas Shrugged during that period. But as conservatives, many of them never understood Ayn Rand and the ideas of reason and intellectual independence or its role as the basis of political freedom. Without understanding the philosophical basics they quickly turned to Trump idolatry as their savior. It was the 'man on the white horse' movement that Ayn Rand had warned of long ago.
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  • Posted by term2 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I would say from the outset that the everything on the table, majority rule government we have is far more dysfunctional than trump ever expected.

    So he is realizing he really can’t accomplish much of the swamp draining he promised. The establishment doesn’t want it drained

    I don’t like protectionism. If he isn’t doing a tactic, I disapprove totally

    I think he is pandering and weakening his positions in hopes of keeping some majority in 2018. Too bad but I say he is realizing the establishment is winning

    All he can do is slow down the spread of collectivism with his veto

    I don’t hold out much home for the country at this point. It will become another Venezuela before there’s any chance of change
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Religionists do the same thing: they object to the standards of reason as 'authoritarian coercion'.
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  • Posted by mccannon01 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree OUC, but in some cases the "ands" in one circumstance could be "ors" in another. The parental duty is to teach the child to develop wisdom in knowing the difference. No child is born with wisdom. It must be acquired, but good parenting can provide the root of the process and speed its acquisition and, hopefully, it catches on before the child reaches the age of majority.
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  • Posted by 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I see it exactly opposite from that, but it doesn't matter which group is leading the way and which group is dragging along with them.
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    Posted by 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I feel like there could be a book on what authoritarianism actually means and how trends converging on authoritarianism are actually one trend.

    "It's also contrary to the tea party movement, much of which has supported it."
    Why do you say the tea party movement is contrary to authoritarianism yet supporting authoritarianism?
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  • Posted by mccannon01 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    For some reason I'm late to this thread, but spot on freedomforall!!! Reading the article in depth was painful as I quickly realized the author didn't seem to know that authoritarianism and personal responsibilities are not the same thing. It seemed any time responsible behavior was required it was deemed "authoritarian".
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    The Democrats have become much more explicitly radical left over the last several decades. The Republicans' "me too but slower" has been dragged along with them to progressively more extremes.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Terms like 'left' and 'right' have never been very precise, but 'right' in American politics used to mean generally individualistic in comparison with the collectivism of the left and the European notion of 'right' as authoritarian nationalism. Europe did not have American individualism. With the lack of defense of individualism the American 'right' has now become less individualistic in a more contradictory mishmash, as illustrated by the Trump idolatry. This is how Trump's influence is helping to destroy individualism. He opposes the establishment intellectuals but has nothing to replace them with.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    They didn't define authoritarian, only used it in an arbitrary and conceptually incoherent manner in accordance with their false premises.

    The election did not "create" an "authoritarian moment". Trump has been authoritarian all along and so has politics before his election. Only the style of openly anti-intellectual, loutish rhetoric has become worse. As the "man on the white horse" claimed to save us from the authoritarian swamp he and his supporters are only further entrenching it. It isn't "built on several long-term trends that converged"; it is the trend. It's also contrary to the tea party movement, much of which has supported it.
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  • Posted by 7 years ago in reply to this comment.
    The article is about authoritarianism rather than left/right. By your definition "right" is anti-authoritarian and "left" is authoritarian. By your definition, leaving people free to produce what spontaneous order emerges from that freedom, most of us here are "right wing".
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