Home/personal security vs. national security/immigration - A philosophical discussion

Posted by $ jbrenner 7 years, 11 months ago to Philosophy
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About a year ago, I met a man who had just moved in with a female friend down the street. The man had served his jail time, but was on a sexual predator list. Some neighbors tried to fundraise throughout our neighborhood to build a community play set, with the explicit intent to force this man to move out (because he would have been in violation of sexual predator laws). Without my money, the play set was built, and the man moved out.

Since then, I have thought a lot about a) the presumption of innocence, b) whether that presumption should apply to people outside my country, especially when such people are from countries for which background checks are of questionable veracity, c) what the philosophical basis (or bases) is for the presumption of innocence are.

If someone moves to my neighborhood, does that constitute an actionable threat? I think not, but I am willing to listen to the counterarguments.

What if a stranger sits in his car in the street in front of my house? What if that stranger parks in my driveway or knocks on the front door? Think about how you react when you hear your doorbell when you are not expecting visitors.

What do you do for your personal and home security? Do you own a gun (or guns)? Do you have a dog that would be considered threatening to people who ring your doorbell? Do you have a home security system? Can you hit an alarm button manually? Is that alarm very loud or silent?

Now consider people coming to your country. How much does it matter whether or not the visitor's past is verifiable? Is it reasonable to let that person in without interviewing that person carefully?

Does a person's philosophy (or faith?) matter? Especially if a person's faith says that it is OK to lie to infidels in order to accomplish larger objectives? Can persons of faith be reasoned with?

On the other hand, is it worthwhile interacting with non-Objectivists with the hope that such people might eventually change? Should such situations be viewed as opportunities, threats, both, or neither?

Just checking my premises...


All Comments

  • Posted by teri-amborn 7 years, 10 months ago
    Rational self-interest should be the basis of all immigration policies.

    Even a human cell allows the good in, keeps the bad out and releases waste.
    The problem is that our nation has philosophical "cancer" and the body politic doesn't seem to be able to discern the difference between normal cells and cancerous tumors (so-to-speak).

    You did a very good thing, however, to eschew participation in what was so obviously a set-up. Too bad that you set such a rare example.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Part of the game is to use draconian sounding names for laws to create a false perception of those declared to have violated it: "Ooh he did thaaat" -- without ever knowing what he actually did or what the law is. It's often employed in package deals lumping real crimes with restrictions against normal actions that offend the bureaucrats. Many "environmental protection" laws are of this ilk. The goal is to demonize those whose normal lives trip over the exploding regulations, while instituting a public acceptance of the notion that crime does not mean something violating someone's rights, but instate a failure to obey the ideological state with the expected deference.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I stood up to the mob only in part. I withheld my own funding from the playset and told the three HOA people who came to my door soliciting precisely why I was opposed to their plans, but nothing more.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Excellent points. Are victims of crime, sexual or not, ever made whole again? Perhaps so, if a stolen item is returned. However, victims of some sex crimes and murder cannot be made whole again. Perhaps this is why some aspects of the punishment are for life. And yet there are some "sex crimes" such as those listed elsewhere in this thread by Zenphamy for which the lifelong punishments are just overwhelmingly large compared to the offenses.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    One of the reasons for coming to this site are your contributions, Zenphamy. It is a pleasure to hear from you again.

    Your comments about the "sexual offenders" in your community are illustrative of how easily this can ruin one's life.

    Your comments on the origin of the presumption of innocence followed by your personal and home security are what I would have expected. I don't live in a continual paranoia either, but my wife is reasonably concerned given that it would only take one out of the hundreds of students I interact with to drastically affect my life. I am a little on the naive side; that aspect of my personality has been helpful in my interactions with both students and faculty. Consequently, I have not changed that behavior.

    You take your personal security seriously, as all of us should. As for dealing with complete strangers in my neighborhood or my country, I am careful, but not paranoid. If that complete stranger were worthy of paranoia, there is a good chance that he/she would have been incarcerated already. While I agree that at least most of the basis for the presumption of innocence is derived from an individual's right to life and property, I will argue that some of the basis for the presumption of innocence is derived from that individual's past history and society's documentation of that past history.

    When it comes to strangers from other countries, particularly those coming from countries that cannot, or will not, document that immigrant's history, I consider it to be no different than when "someone rings my doorbell, I look to see who it is before I open my door." Similarly, as I was writing this, an air duct cleaning company called me unsolicited. Am I to presume innocence for the air duct cleaning company, or is there a reasonable probability that this company is a scam? To that point, I think that this air duct cleaning company either bought the customer base of a now defunct air duct cleaning company (or just a renamed version of the same disreputable company) that my wife had integrity problems with during a previous visit. Any sensible person would initiate a call to the company before buying that company's services, rather than doing so unsolicited over the phone. I see the presumption of innocence for strangers from other countries to be as foolish as presuming innocence among telemarketers. Some are legitimate, but because the percentage of bad actors is definitely non-zero, one should be prudent about doing his/her homework.

    Regarding the interactions with non-Objectivists at any level, I will certainly agree that "it's nonsense to rely on hope or to think anything will change except on an individual level through example, and that rarely." However, when such rare individual changes happen through my example to some of my students, such times are among my most personally gratifying.

    Enjoy your day.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is probably no talent that I have that no Australian has. My claim to fame is being one of the few people to start one of the top handful of US nanotechnology programs. However, there is some international competition, particularly Flinders in Australia.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 7 years, 11 months ago
    Hello j; Long time no talk. The site has become so political, populist, and newsy that I seldom interact anymore. I haven't completely given up on the site as yet, but I suspect the time is coming. But I do miss some of our interactions, so I'll try to respond to some of your questions and the bent of your post.

    There are actually two sets of responses to what you pose--the first of course is from that of Objectivism and the Founding basis of the nation--Natural Individual Rights, and the second is that from the nation and society as it became in the early 20th century and is at present (and probably will remain, and worsen for at least the foreseeable future).

    Your tale of the new guy moving into the neighborhood and your neighbors response to force him out of his home sickens me to the depth of my soul. We've two men in this little community of about 500 that are registered sex offenders. The first is a young man convicted of statutory rape when he was barely 18 for sex with a 16yr old with the morals of an alley cat, and the second is an older man convicted for exposure for peeing in his yard in the evening after drinking several beers outside with friends. Both men have been forced to move from their homes because they can't live within 1 mile of an elementary school property, measured in a straight line radius. Neither individual is in any way a threat to anyone other than themselves, weren't when convicted and given their labels, and won't be in the future--yet they are labeled the same as a pedophile or serial rapist and will carry their labels to their deaths. I think we as a people began that method of continuous punishment for minor errors of judgement during the Dark Ages with scarring(branding) on foreheads, notching noses and ears, cutting out tongues, and lopping off hands-- and carried it into this 'enlightened' land through the Puritans in New England. Apparently, we haven't learned much from their atrocities and failures.

    For the remainder of what you pose (Not in such depth):
    If you define the right to a 'presumption of innocence' on the quality or presence of a background report, where's your presumption of innocence.
    The concept of a presumption of innocence comes from the importance of the Individual Right to life and property (from which all others arise. Before any of that can be altered or taken from a man, there must be no doubt.

    If someone moves to your neighborhood, are they suspicious? Are you if you choose to move to another neighborhood?

    What do I do for personal and home security? I came of age in a war zone, so I'm always aware and always armed. I own my life and property and I will defend both.

    If someone rings my doorbell, I look to see who it is before I open my door.

    For others that want to come to this country, I argue against and vote against any sort of gov't support or aid for anyone anywhere without exception.

    As to interacting with non-Objectivists at any level, it's nonsense to rely on hope or to think anything will change except on an individual level through example, and that rarely.

    As to the bent of your post, I refuse to live my life in fear or with continual paranoia. There's too many small pleasures left in life and too short a time to allow either to be overwhelmed by others stories and fears.

    Thanks for the post and the opportunity to interact.
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  • Posted by Maritimus 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    To me, there is no other way to judge a man. If he happens to choose to belong to some group that I consider my enemies or opponents, his choice will have consequences. But it is HIS choice!
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The question of how to objectively formulate laws and punishments for particular crimes -- so that the punishment and its duration are appropriate, the victim is properly made whole to the extent possible, and the rest of civilized people are not threatened by him in the future -- is a different matter from the general principles identifying concepts of incarceration and partial restrictions regarded as potentially just possibilities.

    Partial restrictions for life on sexual predators are apparently based on the psychology behind that kind of crime and the prospects for mental rehabilitation. Whether or not they are valid is another matter.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Unlike other crimes, there is no full release from punishment for sex crimes. The punishment with regard to where such a person can live is forever, even if the probationary period is completed.

    FYI: The man mentioned in this thread is the only person that I have known that I knew was on the sexual predator list. This case changed my opinion some on this topic.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you got a university to sponsor you as a professor you could be accepted for a 4 year term, I think. After that you could apply for an extension or residency, but according to the rules you must have some talent that no Australian has in order to be approved.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Agreed on all points, with the possible exception that my dog might just befriend the criminal. ;)
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, it was quite disturbing. I had met the man prior to finding out about the neighborhood play set. I was one of the few people in the neighborhood against the homeowners association's decision.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The criminal justice system has definitely been biased against some men. I am glad to hear that you judged this man as an individual.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Religious beliefs are not criminal. Any beliefs that include a commitment to jihad are a threat. The government cannot and should not try to filter people by their expressed philosophy, which most people could not even articulate, but general beliefs threatening the rights of the individuals in this country are certainly relevant in deciding whether to let him into the country. Anyone who recognizes the importance of philosophical ideas can see that allowing the country to be flooded by socialists or religious fanatics would be suicidal.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is nothing wrong with a public record of criminal history. Telling someone he can't live where there is a playground may or may not be justified, depending on whether his release from jail is a full release from punishment or conditional on his behavior.
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  • Posted by ewv 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If a predator is let out of jail earlier than he would have otherwise, with the provision that he be restricted in some ways, then that is part of the legal response to his crime. That response is never instantaneous, once convicted; it lasts for years. It doesn't matter if the felon thinks his punishment, in or out of jail, has "stigmatized" him. If he doesn't like it or anything else about his punishment then he should have thought of that before committing the crime.

    The requirement that felons be regarded as innocent until proven guilty and not arbitrarily punished pertains to government action, not private citizens. You have a right to use whatever information you know about a person and his history in assessing whether or not to trust him as normal or how you relate to him.
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  • Posted by Joseph23006 7 years, 11 months ago
    There was something disturbing about the neighbors deciding to build a play set to force the man to move, would they have done so if he hadn't lived where he did? That would entertain a question of their method being ethical, aside from moral considerations. In other words he moved there legally but the actions of the 'neighbors' made illegal for him to stay, ie: ex post facto, making something a crime that it was legal at the time then applying the new standard after the fact!
    Just a musing.
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