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Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?

Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.

Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.

A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]

Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.

During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.

Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.

Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”

The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”

Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.

I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?


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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Please learn something about concept creation. The concept Objectivism subsumes the NAP as an attribute and thus is a sub category of NAP.
    ARI, being an advocate of closed Objectivism, is close to believing Objectivism to be an religion and seems to consider Rand's pronouncements to be gospel not to be questioned. I was introduced to Rand's works by a guy who had just lost his Objectivist subscription for asking a question wrongly to Rand. It was almost like a religion back in the late 1960s.
    I am an Objectivist libertarian and see no problem with it. Objectivism can be a sub concept under libertarian if libertarian is defined as advocating the NAP. That does not imply that other kinds of libertarians personal philosophies or religions are included in Objectivism.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The only principle that binds the libertarians of any political stripe is the NAP. Do you call the NAP dogma?
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You are way off point in this discussion, but how about Churchill’s intentional bombing of German civilian areas with the intent to reduce their will to fight?
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    When a candidate is not trying hard, it strikes me that he has no expectation of winning and is just enjoying the limelight.
    Such is what pundits were saying about Trump at the get-go. That is, the get-go before Trump had a chance to start trying hard.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    But I would argue choosing communism or nazi-ism is an example of the failure to apply the the three rules or laws of objectivism starting with number one.
    +1
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I understand, so two points.

    Rand in all her knowledge was probably unable to see how she would affect the libertarian movement. The libertarian movement of today is different from that in her day, from internal shifting as well as her influence. Our conversation is a testament to that.

    The second point is that she was reacting to specific persons within the libertarian movement. I am thinking specifically of Murray Rothbard.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I recall reading that one or two other Libertarian candidates had a better chance at being nominated.
    Johnson floating to the top kind of surprised me.
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  • Posted by GMudd 8 years, 9 months ago
    I personally don't like to think of myself as anything more than a logical analytical thinker. Any more labels and I start to feel the walls of classification close in on me. I am who I am and I don't care what liberal/conservative pool I fall into. My mind can be changed based upon points made by self education or others persuasive arguments.

    My advice to you is, until someone proves you wrong you are correct in your assumptions. You can be both Libertarian and Objectivist, although this would be based upon the definitions which you have furnished in your comments. If someone else has a different understanding of what those two words mean then it would be possible that both categories are inconsistent with one another.

    I personally prefer to avoid labels altogether because I find them to be silly and constraining.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 9 months ago
    An an Objectivist I think for myself. Libertarians are the closest to a political party based upon sensible principles that we have in the US at this time. I support them on that basis. I have no interest in what the talmudic folks at ARI have to say about the matter just because they claim to be the "intellectual heir" of Ayn Rand. In my opinion they have greatly harmed Objectivism with their claims that everything Rand said, whether core to Objectivism or not, is pretty much doctrine and that only what she said can ever be part of Objectivism. Then there are the philosophical ratholes of trying to deny and denigrate parts of modern physics as not be comfortable to their conception of the logical and thus of the possible. It has gone beyond rationality to imho well into rationalization.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I quoted Rand's rant in the beginning. That is what told me she was against libertarians. Here is what I said above: Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.]
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 9 months ago
    Objectivism is a complete philosophy, Libertarianism is a political party searching for acceptance. In order for an Objectivist to be a Libertarian, he must compromise principles. Compromise is anathema to an Objectivist, but is inherent to Libertarians.

    Objectivists accept/understand that the initiation of force against others is not a philosophically acceptable means of furthering life of a rationally reasoning animal, while Libertarians have taken the principle and redefined it as the Non-Aggression Principle, a pacifist philosophy of life. Objectivist understand aggression applied to the actions of principle in furtherance of life as a desirable attribute, ie "A Radical for Capitalism".

    All politics and political parties, by their very nature, are searches for power and include compromise as a means to achieve that goal. Objectivism sees political parties as anti-individual and anti-life, as well as non-principled. An Objectivist will never be a Party member, basing his vote on that Party but will place his vote instead, for an individual based on demonstrated principles and actions consistent with those principles.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    First, I want to point out that your demeaning and condescending statement that I “obviously have not either read Miss Rand or simply do not understand her” is in error, and you have no basis upon which to formulate this statement.

    Second, I have read Harry Binswanger, Peter Schwartz and Leonard Peikoff. I find them dogmatists and unamenable to reason. To me, in essence, they say if Rand said “it” then “it” is true and if Rand did not say “it” than “it” is not true. Their attitude explains to me the various “purges” in ARI of those who questioned anything, thus becoming “untrue” believers and shunned. I never saw any of them actually deal with the issue at hand without building and burning a straw man.

    To me, what the dogmatic Objectivist cannot accept is nobody ever claimed libertarians are Objectivists. The point under discussion is one can be an Objectivist and a libertarian. Rand said use reason. Good. Put the issue under discussion in terms of a Venn diagram and tell me what you find.
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  • Posted by Mitch 8 years, 9 months ago
    For me it’s simple, a Libertarian derives his/her belief from an ideological dogma where Objectivists (ideally) derive their beliefs in a sense of rational self-interest as long as it doesn’t infringe upon others.

    Even though I agree with the vast majority of the political stances of a Libertarian, I come to those beliefs in different ways, primarily the individual comes first. I disagree with the Libertarian stance on drugs because a personal freedom to use drugs effects the society that I live in and I don’t want my tax dollar going to these losers throwing their life down the drain (moocher). If we didn’t have a welfare state, I might have a different opinion.

    A Libertarian is closer to an anarchist then an Objectivists. Libertarians are 100% on for personal freedoms where an Objectivists is more in the just leave me alone camp, in my opinion. i.e. I don’t do heroin because it will affect my family and I would be a drain on society.

    'I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.'

    The above requires me to be a productive member of society, heroin use would preclude this…
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That depends entirely on the locations of nearby forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, hangars, airstrips, or munitions factories.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In this context my particular goal is to eliminate, once for all, the threat from a 1400 year old movement that declared itself the inveterate enemy of all things Arabic. Just now I believe we can achieve that goal through a radical economic sanction: refuse to buy any more oil from the Middle East, unless the Republic of Israel, with the assistance of the Zion Oil and Gas Company, manages to strike oil and have enough of it available for export. In the meantime I urge everyone to recognize Islam for what it is: a pan-Arab nationalist movement in religious dress. As it has been ever since Muhammad first said, "Fight and slay the infidels wheresoever ye find them!" Surah 9:5. Look it up.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Many of us have said Johnson screwed up there, and the pity is he does not even seem to be aware of it.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Venn diagrams on libertarian and Objectivist would have some overlap, I don't think that is true for religion and Objectisim.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am not clear what you are saying with "While Rand said we should use our minds and reason what is true or not, LP has interpreted that to mean 'so long as we agree with everything she said.' Whenever someone wants to expand or expound upon Objectivism, he will be deemed unworthy to call himself and Objectivist."
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