Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?
Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.
Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.
A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]
Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.
During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.
Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.
Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”
The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”
Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.
I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?
Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.
A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]
Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.
During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.
Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.
Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”
The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”
Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.
I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?
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ARI, being an advocate of closed Objectivism, is close to believing Objectivism to be an religion and seems to consider Rand's pronouncements to be gospel not to be questioned. I was introduced to Rand's works by a guy who had just lost his Objectivist subscription for asking a question wrongly to Rand. It was almost like a religion back in the late 1960s.
I am an Objectivist libertarian and see no problem with it. Objectivism can be a sub concept under libertarian if libertarian is defined as advocating the NAP. That does not imply that other kinds of libertarians personal philosophies or religions are included in Objectivism.
Such is what pundits were saying about Trump at the get-go. That is, the get-go before Trump had a chance to start trying hard.
+1
Rand in all her knowledge was probably unable to see how she would affect the libertarian movement. The libertarian movement of today is different from that in her day, from internal shifting as well as her influence. Our conversation is a testament to that.
The second point is that she was reacting to specific persons within the libertarian movement. I am thinking specifically of Murray Rothbard.
Johnson floating to the top kind of surprised me.
My advice to you is, until someone proves you wrong you are correct in your assumptions. You can be both Libertarian and Objectivist, although this would be based upon the definitions which you have furnished in your comments. If someone else has a different understanding of what those two words mean then it would be possible that both categories are inconsistent with one another.
I personally prefer to avoid labels altogether because I find them to be silly and constraining.
Objectivists accept/understand that the initiation of force against others is not a philosophically acceptable means of furthering life of a rationally reasoning animal, while Libertarians have taken the principle and redefined it as the Non-Aggression Principle, a pacifist philosophy of life. Objectivist understand aggression applied to the actions of principle in furtherance of life as a desirable attribute, ie "A Radical for Capitalism".
All politics and political parties, by their very nature, are searches for power and include compromise as a means to achieve that goal. Objectivism sees political parties as anti-individual and anti-life, as well as non-principled. An Objectivist will never be a Party member, basing his vote on that Party but will place his vote instead, for an individual based on demonstrated principles and actions consistent with those principles.
Second, I have read Harry Binswanger, Peter Schwartz and Leonard Peikoff. I find them dogmatists and unamenable to reason. To me, in essence, they say if Rand said “it” then “it” is true and if Rand did not say “it” than “it” is not true. Their attitude explains to me the various “purges” in ARI of those who questioned anything, thus becoming “untrue” believers and shunned. I never saw any of them actually deal with the issue at hand without building and burning a straw man.
To me, what the dogmatic Objectivist cannot accept is nobody ever claimed libertarians are Objectivists. The point under discussion is one can be an Objectivist and a libertarian. Rand said use reason. Good. Put the issue under discussion in terms of a Venn diagram and tell me what you find.
Even though I agree with the vast majority of the political stances of a Libertarian, I come to those beliefs in different ways, primarily the individual comes first. I disagree with the Libertarian stance on drugs because a personal freedom to use drugs effects the society that I live in and I don’t want my tax dollar going to these losers throwing their life down the drain (moocher). If we didn’t have a welfare state, I might have a different opinion.
A Libertarian is closer to an anarchist then an Objectivists. Libertarians are 100% on for personal freedoms where an Objectivists is more in the just leave me alone camp, in my opinion. i.e. I don’t do heroin because it will affect my family and I would be a drain on society.
'I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.'
The above requires me to be a productive member of society, heroin use would preclude this…
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