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Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?

Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.

Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.

A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]

Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.

During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.

Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.

Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”

The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”

Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.

I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?


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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That was my point. I have had innumerable Objectivists tell me the two are mutually exclusive and I was not a “true” Objectivist if I did not understand. Eric Hoffer lives well within those souls.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think you are correct about her personal empire. Out of respect, I suppose we should call her Empress Ayn
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  • Posted by $ prof611 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I cannot find anything in your reply to my post that has anything to do with my reply!
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As I said below, nobody I know of (except dogmatic Randians) ever claimed libertarianism was a philosophy. It is simply a group of people who agree that NAP is correct. Nothing more. It is the addition of things libertarians do not claim that I call the straw man. When you apply Objectivism to a libertarians on a Venn diagram, what do you get?
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly because they are apples and oranges. One is a political system based on whatever and the second is a philosophic system applicable to any religion, political belief, even running a commercial enterprise. One validates and folows or invalidates and changes depending on their structure of Rule Three and their individual honesty. Which is another word for being objective.
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  • Posted by craigerb 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This is a logical error: just because being an Objectivist does not entail being a libertarian and vice versa, it does not follow the two are mutually exclusive.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Government begins by protecting some against others and ends up protecting itself against everyone." ~~Robert LeFevre, The Nature of Man and His Government. I wonder how Rand would have described LeFevre.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That excuse is not going to last forever just as it didn't last for any of the others. The three basic principles are the foundation. The rest assists in how to approach different problems or issues. The rest is the individuals honesty, self respect and choice. If they choose a Plato answer they were either not being honest or chose to join a non thinking collective. Eseptico's additon of Communism is a an example of the latter.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I hardly think telling people living in a dictatorship they should leave is a viable excuse for Rand’s attitude. Even if you take Cuba as an example of the last 60 years, where, exactly could those people go? The Cuban government patrolled the waters surrounding the island, only a relative few could escape. Besides, there is a psychological effect that once the spirit of a person is broken, those in control can do whatever they want with zero resistance.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, but having experienced so many disappointing elections, 52% of the voting members at the convention may have gone along with Johnson (and Weld the Wicked), gambling on the chance of getting a breakthrough. The other candidates at the Libertarian convention may have had more of a hard core libertarian platform, but that could be perceived as the problem in getting enough votes to be heard. Time will tell if this gamble pays off in any way.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You hit the point precisely. Nobody I know of (except dogmatic Randians) ever claimed libertarianism was a philosophy. It is simply a group of people who agree that NAP is correct. Nothing more. It is the addition of things libertarians do not claim that I call the straw man.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Objectivism has always been much more her personal empire, ruled by her whims, than it was ever about a consistent set of principles." WHA? Objectivism is not about a consistent set of principles???
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Perplexing, isn’t it. Incredibly she claimed credit for the NAP and said the libertarians stole it from her. I guess she did not study enough to know the NAP goes back a couple thousand years. I seem to remember something about Hospers at the time, but not enough to comment. Certainly what you say “fits” Rand’s general conduct.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There will be many different viewpoints among libertarians because the only principle that unites them is the NAP. For this reason the full spectrum of other ideas are presented under the libertarian banner, but that does not mean those viewpoints are libertarian to the extent they violate the NAP. This, I think, is where Rand went wrong and why I call it a straw man. She tried to put all those viewpoints under the tent of libertarianism and then attacked the tent. For all Rand’s talk about logic, I doubt she understood Venn and his diagrams.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 8 years, 9 months ago
    At a political level you might say they are close, but at a philosophical level they are totally different. Many libertarians think David Hume is great and are ultimately anti-reason. As Rand said I am not so much a capitalist as a rational egoist, but ultimately epistemological reason is what I consider most important.


    I am not philosophically close to someone who professes a pro-capitalism point of view, but thinks creationism is right or who thinks capitalism is based on mysticism.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In my opinion, Johnson and Weld individually or combined don't have enough charisma to make a public speech let alone run something. Joh McAfee would have been a great PR guy on the road.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Rand despised the idea of a cult as it requires a person to be mindless and selfless. What she admired was the role of reason in peoples lives and how it manifested in their work and thought. Anyone who would subordinate themselves to a cult mentality would be despised.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Your Rand quote definitely violates the NAP. However, I think that it also violates the Objectivist credo. In fact, it looks like one instance in which Rand let her temper get the best of her reasoning.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This is the core of the minarchist vs. anarchist debate: Is it more hazardous to trust the police to purge themselves of bad guys, or to abolish them and have to fight bad guys ourselves?

    If it were up to me, I would do away with the separation of powers and allow the public, at town meetings, to directly discipline police officers, making all alleged misconduct cases completely public. I would also give people the right to resist police when the police are violating their rights.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 8 years, 9 months ago
    Objectivism is a complete philosophical system logically derived from a set of axioms about existence. The NAP is a tiny little membership agreement between an affinity group which has nothing in common but that NAP. Please don't confuse a great philosophy with your membership card in a rag-tag group which denies the validity and role of philosophy. The very fact you are trying to equate the two shows the gulf in values you are addressing. Liberty is a consequence of Objectivist philosophy but reason is not a consequence of NAP. NAP does not even affirm liberty, its a negative statement about behavior. Thinkers need more.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    She would call upon those residents to bug out and resist. She distinguishes between the sheep-like voters for the Vichy Regime and The Resistance.
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